Debriefing of failed Subaru purchase.

B

Bradley Walker

Hello all,

I would like to debrief with everyone and get outside input regarding my
experience of 'almost' purchasing a 2001 Outback Wagon Limited Edition with
78,000 miles from a local large dealership. The asking price for this
vehicle was initially $15,900. Initially after inspecting everything over
top to bottom the vehicle itself looked in very good shape. Before taking
it out for a test drive I asked the salesman what the price was and he
quoted me the $15,900 as I had expected. I asked him "What if I wrote you a
check for $13,000?" He shot a pre-programmed response back of "No deal." I
pretty much expected that so I pulled out the internet special price listed
on AutoTrader for this vehicle which is $13,200. I could see a bit of the
look in his face that I just am not the standard gullible impulse buyer. He
mumbled that that was the internet price and was the absolute lowest they
could go. During the test drive I pulled off and went through the glove
compartment and noticed that there were receipts and even an Extended
Warranty paper for 6yr/80k mile that was in the name of the previous owner.

After the test drive we went into the office and sat down where I offered
$12,500 in a check on the table. He still said no deal and began probably
what is a scripted or preprogrammed response of "I'm loosing money on
this...". I decided to throw him out of that loop and started discussing a
trade in of my current Ford Explorer. I told him that it was a `93 Ford
Explorer XLT 4WD, 4D, Auto, 125k, and he went over to the appraiser. I
noticed he sat down with the guy for a good 3 minutes, came back and said
they'd offer "a couple hundred" for it at most. I told him that this very
same dealership, the very same salesman that was standing outside offered me
$2100 on it 3 months ago. I could tell that threw a cog in the mental gears
of this salesman and I asked if we could use the computer in the lobby to
verify the value and he went to KBB.com.

I had him type in every option/feature/etc as I stood over his shoulder
(hopefully breathing down his neck would help - but didn't). Anyway the end
result was that the trade in value of my Explorer is $2700. He saw that,
looked somewhat surprised and went back over to the appraisers office again.
He was there much shorter this time, came back and mentioned that it's not a
true 'cash to cash' deal. I asked why that makes any difference (being
smart alec here) and he got to the point where he said that it may be worth
that, but they will not take it. The appraiser came over and also voiced
the same thought that they were comfortable for selling the Outback for
$13,200 and absolutely could not or would not go lower and that they can
sleep at night doing that.

That pretty much summed up me decision to walk especially after their
refusal to offer any sort of parts/labor warranty for the vehicle since it
was an "As Is" vehicle. What is the consensus here? Obviously this was a
jerk of a salesman but what could I or should I have done differently? I
would like everyone's input so that next time I go elsewhere to look for a
Subaru I can do something so as not to have the salesman stonewall me on
every turn.

Brad
 
Bradley Walker said:
Hello all,

I would like to debrief with everyone and get outside input regarding my
experience of 'almost' purchasing a 2001 Outback Wagon Limited Edition
with 78,000 miles from a local large dealership. The asking price for
this vehicle was initially $15,900. Initially after inspecting everything
over top to bottom the vehicle itself looked in very good shape. Before
taking it out for a test drive I asked the salesman what the price was and
he quoted me the $15,900 as I had expected. I asked him "What if I wrote
you a check for $13,000?" He shot a pre-programmed response back of "No
deal." I pretty much expected that so I pulled out the internet special
price listed on AutoTrader for this vehicle which is $13,200. I could see
a bit of the look in his face that I just am not the standard gullible
impulse buyer. He mumbled that that was the internet price and was the
absolute lowest they could go. During the test drive I pulled off and
went through the glove compartment and noticed that there were receipts
and even an Extended Warranty paper for 6yr/80k mile that was in the name
of the previous owner.

After the test drive we went into the office and sat down where I offered
$12,500 in a check on the table. He still said no deal and began probably
what is a scripted or preprogrammed response of "I'm loosing money on
this...". I decided to throw him out of that loop and started discussing
a trade in of my current Ford Explorer. I told him that it was a `93 Ford
Explorer XLT 4WD, 4D, Auto, 125k, and he went over to the appraiser. I
noticed he sat down with the guy for a good 3 minutes, came back and said
they'd offer "a couple hundred" for it at most. I told him that this very
same dealership, the very same salesman that was standing outside offered
me $2100 on it 3 months ago. I could tell that threw a cog in the mental
gears of this salesman and I asked if we could use the computer in the
lobby to verify the value and he went to KBB.com.

I had him type in every option/feature/etc as I stood over his shoulder
(hopefully breathing down his neck would help - but didn't). Anyway the
end result was that the trade in value of my Explorer is $2700. He saw
that, looked somewhat surprised and went back over to the appraisers
office again. He was there much shorter this time, came back and mentioned
that it's not a true 'cash to cash' deal. I asked why that makes any
difference (being smart alec here) and he got to the point where he said
that it may be worth that, but they will not take it. The appraiser came
over and also voiced the same thought that they were comfortable for
selling the Outback for $13,200 and absolutely could not or would not go
lower and that they can sleep at night doing that.

That pretty much summed up me decision to walk especially after their
refusal to offer any sort of parts/labor warranty for the vehicle since it
was an "As Is" vehicle. What is the consensus here? Obviously this was a
jerk of a salesman but what could I or should I have done differently? I
would like everyone's input so that next time I go elsewhere to look for a
Subaru I can do something so as not to have the salesman stonewall me on
every turn.

Brad

Sell you trade then walk in without it. You'll be in a much better
position.
 
Bradley Walker wrote:
.... that's just an assumption that the Explorer would sell. Being
the whole TV/radio/ad marketing is high mpg on vehicles, many people are
trading in SUV's and trucks at an astounding rate and barely buying any.

Maybe that's why the Explorer wasn't worth much to the dealer (which
seems to be true...)? No reason they should pay more, in that case.

Might be worth getting another firm price on the Explorer, from another
local dealer? At least, that would help confirm what it's real value is.

Larry Van Wormer
 
I hate to play the pessimist, but as Larry suggested, you're going to
have problems selling/trading-in a '93 Explorer. The perception and
reality is that it's a 13 year old american car that gets poor mileage
and has alleged safety issues. The dealer was probably looking at it
as a vehicle that will sit on his lot forever. Even if you can only
get a couple hundred of bucks for it, you'll feel better about it if
you shop it around a little. If a 13 year old Subaru is worth about a
thousand bucks, your explorer is going to be worth even less.

Obviously, the other option is to drive the explorer into the ground,
but I understand your reluctance to use it as a work vehicle while
doing so.
 
This is something I forgot to add in my initial post and how it escaped me,
I don't know. Anyway I'm curious to know if this event that happened was
illegal or simply unethical. When I was inside the dealership with this
salesman and I was making and standing firm on my $11,500-$12,000 offer, the
salesman made the comment. "I probably shouldn't do this, but if you cut me
the check for $11,000 on the side, I'll give you this vehicle right here and
now...". For those of you wondering if I even considered it...not for a
moment. I just am curious if his offering that was violating
rules/regulations/laws, or if it was nothing more than him being so stupid
to think I would write him that check and even expect to get the car?

Brad
 
Bradley Walker said:
This is something I forgot to add in my initial post and how it escaped
me, I don't know. Anyway I'm curious to know if this event that happened
was illegal or simply unethical. When I was inside the dealership with
this salesman and I was making and standing firm on my $11,500-$12,000
offer, the salesman made the comment. "I probably shouldn't do this, but
if you cut me the check for $11,000 on the side, I'll give you this
vehicle right here and now...".

As opposed to what? Shipping it to France and back?

The dealer thinks you are dumb and will fall for some BS line that makes it
seem "under the table". You should go find a different car from a different
dealer.

Around where I live, the 13k price for that milage is still about 2k too
high.

It's not like it's the electric company or anything, you can shop around.
Do it, the dealer is being a dick, or testing his new training or
something....
 
I've pretty much planned on this from the getgo, which is why I'm looking
for or asking for lower prices on the vehicles to begin with. If a salesman
is getting on avg a 35% commission on a $13,200 vehicle (seems to be avg of
what cars.com and Autotrader are showing for the same vehicle/mileage),
thats $4620 in his pocket. I in no way think it's outlandish or unfair for
me to ask $11,500 - $12,000 because the salesman is still getting paid, the
dealer is moving an inventory item, and everyone wins. Maybe it's because I
have morals, ethics, or because I grew up in a family that counted every
penny because the family brought in $300 a week from the factory, but having
a salemans commission go from $4620 to $4000 is nothing short of an
egotistical greedy person not willing to have compassion or a true interest
in another human being that he considers a 'customer'. Thats not how I have
run my business nor is it how I'd ever so much as think of treating another
person.
 
Bradley said:
Hello all,

I would like to debrief with everyone and get outside input regarding my
experience of 'almost' purchasing a 2001 Outback Wagon Limited Edition with
78,000 miles from a local large dealership. The asking price for this
vehicle was initially $15,900.

much snippage...

You'll almost always pay more at a dealership for
a used car than from an individual. If you somehow
*need* to buy from a dealership, beating him down
to $13.2k is probably the best you could ask for.

If you have some time, read this:

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html

-jim
 
Bradley said:
I've pretty much planned on this from the getgo, which is why I'm looking
for or asking for lower prices on the vehicles to begin with. If a salesman
is getting on avg a 35% commission on a $13,200 vehicle (seems to be avg of
what cars.com and Autotrader are showing for the same vehicle/mileage),
thats $4620 in his pocket. I in no way think it's outlandish or unfair for
me to ask $11,500 - $12,000 because the salesman is still getting paid, the
dealer is moving an inventory item, and everyone wins. Maybe it's because I
have morals, ethics, or because I grew up in a family that counted every
penny because the family brought in $300 a week from the factory, but having
a salemans commission go from $4620 to $4000 is nothing short of an
egotistical greedy person not willing to have compassion or a true interest
in another human being that he considers a 'customer'. Thats not how I have
run my business nor is it how I'd ever so much as think of treating another
person.

What makes you think the salesman is getting 35% of the purchase price?
If he's lucky he gets 35% of the dealer's profit on the vehicle. At
their "internet special" price of $13.2k they are probably going to net
$1200-$1500 dollars on the vehicle, depending of course what it cost
them to get it.

I understand your frustration, because I don't enjoy dealing with used
car salesmen. But face it, the market for SUVs has taken a
shit-kicking in the last year, and you can throw your KBB values out
the window. No dealer will give you that much for a 13 year old SUV,
when they probably couldn't even retail it for $2500.
 
I was told to never even talk about the trade-in or even let them know
you HAVE a trade-in until after the price of the new car is written in
stone. Treat each as a separate deal. So that's the main thing I
would have done differently. Have you ever looked at
www.carbuyingtips.com ? I highly recommend reading the site in its
entirety before attempting to negotiate again.
 
Dean said:
What makes you think the salesman is getting 35% of the purchase price?
If he's lucky he gets 35% of the dealer's profit on the vehicle. At
their "internet special" price of $13.2k they are probably going to net
$1200-$1500 dollars on the vehicle, depending of course what it cost
them to get it.

I understand your frustration, because I don't enjoy dealing with used
car salesmen. But face it, the market for SUVs has taken a
shit-kicking in the last year, and you can throw your KBB values out
the window. No dealer will give you that much for a 13 year old SUV,
when they probably couldn't even retail it for $2500.
They won't keep that car on their lot - likely go to the auction house
and wind up on a tote-the-noter on the 'old highway' side of town.

I also agree on the salesman's commission. Probably a few to several
hundred bucks is it.

If the Explorer has been well taken care of, etc. It would be better
sold - if even at a discount - or given to a family memeber or someone's
college kid.

Take a look in the newspaper at the car sales for similar vehicles to
yours - be honest about its shortcomings if any - and figure most folks
selling a car in the paper will likely take 10-20% under the asking
price. Or pretend your an insurance agaent, call a couple of used car
lots, describe the car and ask what it would likely SELL for off their lot.

Carl
 
Ratatooie said:
Around where I live, the 13k price for that milage is still about 2k too
high.


Where do you live? The estimated KBB on this assumming AT is $15.8k
around where I live. So a $13k price would be good. I would really like
to purchase my next car there if its close enough to me.
 
Bradley Walker said:
Yes I have read that site top to bottom since summer.

When searching for potential used vehicles, have you checked banks and
credit unions? I know my credit union was a special area in their parking
lot where they park repossessed vehicles, are they have been rumored to
offer some pretty good deals.
 
Brad,

I applaud you. You knew what you were doing before you went there. You
brushed up on the latest 'salesman tricks'. You had a firm idea of what you
could afford, knew what car you wanted and how much it was worth. My
viewpoint is that, similar to what Rick stated above, you don't owe that
salesman anything. Especially if you feel that he's doing something tricky
that you just don't feel comfortable with, you don't even owe him simple
courtesy.

What I try to do, in addition to 'arming myself' by reading books like Deb
mentioned and which you did very well, is I try to remember that even though
buying a car is bartering, the difference is that the car doesn't belong to
that guy. It's just a commodity for the dealership. On the other hand,
your money is hard earned. If you don't buy THEIR car, you're not out a
thing. On the other hand, they are losing money every minute a car remains
on their lot.

My mindset is that KBB (or if you were able to get your hands on the most
recent BLACK BOOK) are just tools for you to use; however, the figure that
you've decided is your max price is just that.

"I'll give you $xx,xxx for the car."

"Mr Salesman, you can give me whatever extended warranties and undercoating
and fuzzy dice you want to, but you won't get a cent more than my offer."

My offer, if they choose to accept it, doesn't include my trade-in. I don't
discuss trade-ins until after we've made a deal. I don't use their
financing. I arrive on the lot already pre-approved by my bank. I don't
have any collateral nor money down. It's purely money for car.

Questions:
I'm curious why you didn't respond to his 'under the table' offer with a
smile and a counter question of, "Alright but in that case, it'll be written
for $10k." -I'm imagining myself in that situation. I don't think I'd have
been as well-mannered as you. I'm absolutely not a jerk, but I have no
issue at all in volleying with some amateur salesman.
Also I'm curious if they've called you back yet with a lower price.

Pat
 
...
My offer, if they choose to accept it, doesn't include my trade-in. I don't
discuss trade-ins until after we've made a deal. I don't use their
financing. I arrive on the lot already pre-approved by my bank. I don't
have any collateral nor money down. It's purely money for car.

I agree but also don't make a point of telling them that before absolutely
necessary. Let them assume they stand to profit from the financing kickback,
extended warrantee, etc. when nailing down the price.
 
Pat,

Thank you very much for the pointers, thoughts, and comments you wrote. My
goal before going in there was to be well armed, however I know being that
this is my first large car purchase. However no matter how armed I can be,
just being finesse with the whole negotiating is something I definately need
to work on as I get older and do more dealings with car salesman. Sometimes
I wonder if I shouldn't start my own dealership, have a handful of salesman
paid via hourly wages for selling and for other duties - plus a bonus for
cars sold. I wonder if it'd really make a difference?

Anyway, back to the thought at hand. The thing for me is as others made
mention in this thread of sort of heckling me for not taking the $13,200
offer. Yes I could have afforded it, but being I run a business I want to
be financially frugal with my money and at the same time, there wasn't nor
did they want to offer a 3mon/3000 mi warranty for the "just in cases" in
life. I felt more comfortable in the low 12's unless they were to offer
something in addition to the car and it's $13,200 price like warranty, new
tires, etc, etc. Also thank you very much for the thought regarding not
mentioning a trade in until the deal is hammered out. But that does bring
up one question. It seems that this dealership (and probably many more)
base their acceptance of a trade in and it's value based on the current
selling price of the vehicle to recoup any profit loss. I.E. if the Outback
sells for $15,900, they can take a $1500 trade in and still get $14400 for
the Outback. But drop it down to the "internet price" of $13,200 and they
start whining about the explorer being totally worthless and of no value and
to stop their 'profit bleeding' they accept little or no trade in value. Is
there any recommended way to deal with them regarding this roadblock?

I actually did bring up the topic of "Hey I'm glad you want to loose money
by not selling this vehicle and letting the inventory movement slow down to
a crawl." All I got from that was a sarcastic "No deal." that was said in a
very gruff tone. Whether the guy knew I had him cornered or whether it was
an amateur salesman, I'm not sure but none of those angles even worked. I
think his new favorite line is "No deal." Like you I went pre-approved with
a $16,000 max loan from CapitolOne in hand ready to write out a check and
kept dropping hints that emphasized "I can pay you right now" to hopefully
bait him on his eagerness and willingness to sell the car.

Mind you this is the sale Subaru salesman who has continously called me once
or twice a month since last March when possible vehicle matches came across
the lot to inform me and I could sense the eagerness in his voice to sell me
a vehicle. Also at the same time I kept emphasizing that me and my business
needs a vehicle, I befriended him from the standpoint to use him (OK I know
that sounds bad, but while being friendly I limited what I said and what he
really knew about me and my intentions). Ironically though since Saturday
no calls or emails have come in with a lower offer to the low 12's. Not
even a peep from them. I get the feeling that they view me as too smart of
a consumer and that they want nothing to do with me, even if it means
refusing to sell me the vehicle so they can let it cost them money daily in
the lot so someone gets it for sticker of $15,900.

On the other side of things, I did alot of searching on AutoTrader this past
week and came across a dealership from Northern VA that had nearly the same
identical car. Nearly 30k less mileage, same color, features, etc. Their
asking price is $15,700 and the salesman asked regarding a trade in so I
have discussed that via email. I get the feeling if they come back with a
$2000+ trade in offer, it would only lower the pricetag to $13,700 with no
reduction in price from negotiations. I probably wouldn't get that vehicle
due to the driving distance and my lack of free time to get away from
customers, but I figure it's worth a learning experience and seeing where it
could go. If anything I could possibly use the above dealerships internet
price of $13,200 to counter any $13,700 offer that may come my way. Who
knows, a low to mid 12 something may be possible yet.

Bradley

To answer your question
 
Bradley,
Just buy a new car and stop whining about ysed car dealers. They
suck and try to rip you off . We all know that. You can either get
crushed or get a new car and start out fresh. The dealer probably gave
11k as a trade and they are selling for 15k.
If they wont sell for 13k go to another dealer. Its wrong to be stuck
on a particular car . That is a recipe for a ripoff. Try other AWD
makes/models. With the GM red tag pricing you can get a Torrent/equinox
awd for $22-23k new. A new car is always a better deal than a used one
 
Please see above, new cars are out of the option. They are financially out
of the budget range so more talk of me getting a new car will just be
ignored as trolling.

What's wrong with going after a particular car/model? If it works well or
in my case works exceptionally well to meet the needs I have then I will
stick with it till I find one so I don't have "buyers remorse" later wishing
I would have gotten something I didn't.
 

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