Coolant

[Mickey]

Was reading a topic in another non-automotive group and the subject of
coolants came up and got to be a hot topic. Was wondering what
official position is on coolant for Subbies, the green Ethylene glycol
or the orange propylene glycol (DEX-cool).

What type are you folks using?

Mickey

 

[Rick Courtright]

official position is on coolant for Subbies, the green Ethylene glycol
or the orange propylene glycol (DEX-cool).

Hi,

I don't know about an "official" position, but my "unofficial" position
is to stick with the color that came from the factory. I've experienced
some leakage changing to orange from green in older vehicles that went
away when I went back to green. I understand there's been documentation
of some kind of sludge formed if the two are mixed. Some have reported
no problems. YMMV.

Rick

 

[Mike]

My new GM has Dex-cool of course. Lots of discussion on other NG's
about this re: AKA Death-Cool. Supposedly there is a lawsuit against
GM for leaking intake manifold gaskets caused by Dex-Cool. It's also
rumored to cause sludge buildup in the cooling system. Yes, you need a
complete flush if changing between the two. I've also heard that
Dex-Cool is not to be used in brass radiators. I'll stick to
non-sylicate green stuff in the Subie & probably switch over when the
warranty runs out on the GM. My $.02 FWIW.

Mike
'01 OBW

 

[Matt hotmail]

Well, I would be the idiot that tried to switch from green to orange on my
2002 subaru. Prestone says you can....BUT DO NOT BELIEVE THEM. There was a
bit too much corrosion in the system after 6 months and 6,000 miles. The
corrosion floats to the top and I noticed a color change in the coolant
overflow bottle. I got to the shop and used a super flush on it four times
then added the Prestone Green coolant. Hopefully this will stop the
problem. It looked like I took the radiator to the beach.

Debating if I should add the subaru conditioner to it or not...any ideas?
Matt

 

[Rat]

I wouldnt do it - I hear it solves the head gasket problem but now
owners who have done it are experiencing overheating problems.

 

[Mickey]

Was reading a topic in another non-automotive group and the subject of
coolants came up and got to be a hot topic. Was wondering what official
position is on coolant for Subbies, the green Ethylene glycol or the
orange propylene glycol (DEX-cool).

What type are you folks using?

Mickey

Thanks for all the comments.

Mickey

 

[Edward Hayes]

I let my dealer put in their recommended cooling system conditioner about
6,000 miles ago. Before the conditioner I was adding a measured 4 oz of
coolant to the recovery bottle ever 3-4,000 miles. Since the condition was
put in I have not added any coolant. I have noticed NO problems whatso ever
in the 6,000 miles since the conditioner was put in. Car runs cool and
heater runs hot as normal. I think people who have trouble after they add
any coolant conditioner additives are ones who have a junked up system
before the add. O-YES: another important point that by letting SOA do their
thing I received a 8 year 100,000 mile warranty which is a very good thing.
JMO.

 

[Matt hotmail]

GO GREEN! See my message below.

Matt

Previous message-Well, I would be the idiot that tried to switch from green
to orange on my
2002 subaru. Prestone says you can....BUT DO NOT BELIEVE THEM. There was a
bit too much corrosion in the system after 6 months and 6,000 miles. The
corrosion floats to the top and I noticed a color change in the coolant
overflow bottle. I got to the shop and used a super flush on it four times
then added the Prestone Green coolant. Hopefully this will stop the
problem. It looked like I took the radiator to the beach.
Matt

 

[y_p_w]

Well, I would be the idiot that tried to switch from green to orange on my
2002 subaru. Prestone says you can....BUT DO NOT BELIEVE THEM. There was a
bit too much corrosion in the system after 6 months and 6,000 miles. The
corrosion floats to the top and I noticed a color change in the coolant
overflow bottle. I got to the shop and used a super flush on it four times
then added the Prestone Green coolant. Hopefully this will stop the
problem. It looked like I took the radiator to the beach.

Debating if I should add the subaru conditioner to it or not...any ideas?
Matt

I'd get rid of as much green Prestone (from the yellow bottle) as I
could. I've heard the amount of silicates in regular Prestone has
gone down over the year, but it still has it. Silicates are known
to cause a host of problems when they inevitably go out of suspension.

Most Japanese carmakers use smallish radiators with smaller passages.
The word I hear is that silicate sludge buildup can become a bigger
problem in such radiators.

My theory is that perhaps Dex-Cool may not be the best solution
because Japanese carmakers prefer to use phosphate corrosion
inhibitors in addition to some organic-acid inhbitors that most
carmakers use. To follow most European carmakers recommendations
for phosphate-free coolant, Dex-Cool was thusly formulated. The
idea is that typically hard European water causes abrasive
precipitates to form. I'm guessing that a phosphate and OAT
coolant (Japanese OEM) may be the correct one for most Subarus.

 

[Rick Courtright]

I'd get rid of as much green Prestone (from the yellow bottle) as I
could. I've heard the amount of silicates in regular Prestone has
gone down over the year, but it still has it. Silicates are known
to cause a host of problems when they inevitably go out of suspension.

Hi,

Dumb question: how do silicates go out of suspension when they're in a
constantly circulating base liquid?

There's a lot of argument pro and con on silicate presence or absence in
coolant. I've run regular green Prestone in a variety of cars, always
using a 50-50 mix of coolant and DISTILLED water. I'm not going to stick
my neck out and say for sure there's been no problem, but I will say I
haven't noticed one. This with American, English, German, Italian and
Japanese cooling systems. They've all been changed at two year
intervals. Water pumps have lasted from 125k miles to 150k+ miles,
radiators haven't clogged or developed corrosion leaks, etc.

So I'll add another theory: perhaps the silicate "problem" may be one of
those that only crops up in neglected systems?

Rick

 

[y_p_w]

y_p_w wrote:




Hi,

Dumb question: how do silicates go out of suspension when they're in a
constantly circulating base liquid?

They precipitate out. I would guess that hot/cold cycles would have
something to do with it. I don't think it matters if it's constantly
being mixed. Oil sludge can form in the crankcase even though it's
constantly circulated. In addition, because of silicates, coolant
has an 18 month shelf life. I could imagine coolant sitting in a
warehouse and/or shelf that long.

There's a lot of argument pro and con on silicate presence or absence in
coolant. I've run regular green Prestone in a variety of cars, always
using a 50-50 mix of coolant and DISTILLED water. I'm not going to stick
my neck out and say for sure there's been no problem, but I will say I
haven't noticed one. This with American, English, German, Italian and
Japanese cooling systems. They've all been changed at two year
intervals. Water pumps have lasted from 125k miles to 150k+ miles,
radiators haven't clogged or developed corrosion leaks, etc.

I don't know of any Japanese carmaker that will use silicated coolant
at the factory. Most warn not to. check out this service bulletin
from a maker of heavy duty heat exchangers:

<www.mesabi.com/pdf/SERV_BUL_110.PDF>

"1. ANTIFREEZE
Antifreeze is high in silicates. High silicate
antifreezes were designed to
protect the aluminum components in
automobile engines. More and more of
this type of antifreeze ends up in
heavy-duty engines where it can cause
problems.

Silicate gel adheres to cold surfaces so
it is seen in the radiator first. We suggest
the contaminant be analyzed and
the proper corrective action taken. We
have seen instances where the problem
is not only silicate but other contaminants
as well."

So I'll add another theory: perhaps the silicate "problem" may be one of
those that only crops up in neglected systems?

At the very least, a little bit will precipitate out, bond to water
pump seals, and be mildly abrasive.

 

[Hallraker]

Was reading a topic in another non-automotive group and the subject of
coolants came up and got to be a hot topic. Was wondering what
official position is on coolant for Subbies, the green Ethylene glycol
or the orange propylene glycol (DEX-cool).

What type are you folks using?

Mickey

Well, green IS my favorite color...

-Matt

 

[CompUser]

Dumb question: how do silicates go out of suspension when they're in a
constantly circulating base liquid?

IIRC, the problem comes when you switch from one
format coolant to the other (and I can't remember
which sequence is badder, or if both are equally
bad)...it's difficult to get ALL the residual
coolant out, and apparently they don't co-reside
well.

I got enough info that I decided I'd stay with
what was in there, and moved on to other matters.
I think I saw it up on nasioc.com.

Steve

 

[Edward Hayes]

I have read that high phosphates and high silicates are bad in modern
engines. I have also read that no phosphates and low silicates is preferred
because of water pump cavitations. Europe has a coolant called I think G-11
? and in the us it's sold as Zerox G05 and is now the official coolant for
Ford and Chrysler i.e. Mercedes. After much reading on the subject and
contacting SOA (who said any coolant not bio friendly is ok) I flushed and
refilled my Forester with Zerex GO5. Comments???

 

[y_p_w]

I have read that high phosphates and high silicates are bad in modern
engines. I have also read that no phosphates and low silicates is preferred
because of water pump cavitations. Europe has a coolant called I think G-11
? and in the us it's sold as Zerox G05 and is now the official coolant for
Ford and Chrysler i.e. Mercedes. After much reading on the subject and
contacting SOA (who said any coolant not bio friendly is ok) I flushed and
refilled my Forester with Zerex GO5. Comments???

Zerex G-05 is supposedly a low-silicate organic-acid coolant. Most
Japanese carmakers say silicates are a bad, bad thing - especially
Honda and Toyota.

I thought water pump cavitations were more likely with borates.

Here's a pretty good explanation:

<http://www.bullittarchive.com/Maintenance/antifreeze>

"In Europe the water is generally very hard with high concentrations of
minerals. European car manufactures prefer coolants with little or no
phosphates. The phosphates can react with the magnesium and calcium
salts in hard water, which can form solids. These solids can wear erode
seals or clog narrow cooling passages.

Japanese manufacturers prefer coolants that are free of silicates, but
higher in phosphates. It's difficult for the owner of a Japanese import
to find this kind of antifreeze at the local parts store or even the
dealership. However, for years American shops have been installing the
traditional green coolant in Japanese imports with no problems.

American and Japanese coolants contain phosphates to protect the iron
and steel parts in the engine. Even though the U.S. has hard water, it
is not nearly as hard as the tap water found in Europe. In Europe it is
not a good idea to use the standard green coolant. In addition to
phosphates, most domestic coolants contain silicone and silicates. The
silicone helps lubricate the water pump while the silicates help protect
aluminum parts by coating the surfaces."

This is what Prestone has to say (www.prestone.com):

"Q: Does Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant contain phosphates?
A: Some European automobile manufacturers request that a phosphate-free
antifreeze be used in their vehicles. This issue is related to the
extremely high mineral content of the water in Europe. If you were to
mix an antifreeze that contained phosphates with the type of water they
have in Europe, it may produce deposits that can settle in the cooling
system and promote corrosion."

 

[Rick Courtright]

dealership. However, for years American shops have been installing the
traditional green coolant in Japanese imports with no problems.

Hi,

This has been my experience, but once again, it looks like the various
sources cited mention the same problem: hard water. I mix my coolant
with DISTILLED water ONLY based on advice from a mechanic/radiator guy
over 30 years ago. The hard water problem's been known for a long time!

Another question: don't they have distilled water in Europe? Seems a far
simpler solution than working the chemists overtime to come up with
exotic formulations. Sounds like an outgrowth of the "myth" of German
engineering at work: "Hmmm... we could build this with four bolts and
use a regular wrench, so let's see if we can build it with 20 and have
to invent two new special tools to reach and turn them. Then call it
'sophisticated engineering.' And when it fails because it's too complex
to be reliable, blame the operator for not knowing how to use it
properly."

Rick

 

[y_p_w]

Hi,

This has been my experience, but once again, it looks like the various
sources cited mention the same problem: hard water. I mix my coolant
with DISTILLED water ONLY based on advice from a mechanic/radiator guy
over 30 years ago. The hard water problem's been known for a long time!

Fine. As to any potential for silicates gelling out, I don't think
hard water has anything to do with it. It also sounds like liquid
silicone slows down the silicate-to-gel process. I've heard enough
horror stories about silicate gelling to conclude that it's not
worth using yellow-green Prestone in sub 2-gallon capacity Japanese
radiator.

Another question: don't they have distilled water in Europe? Seems a far
simpler solution than working the chemists overtime to come up with
exotic formulations. Sounds like an outgrowth of the "myth" of German
engineering at work: "Hmmm... we could build this with four bolts and
use a regular wrench, so let's see if we can build it with 20 and have
to invent two new special tools to reach and turn them. Then call it
'sophisticated engineering.' And when it fails because it's too complex
to be reliable, blame the operator for not knowing how to use it
properly."

I brought a bottle of silicate-free coolant and a bottle of distilled
water to a shadetree mechanic - with specific instructions to use the
distilled water. When I got the car back, there was about a quart of
coolant left in the bottle, but the distilled water was unopened. I
guess regardless of what I asked for, he was going to use tap water.

I guess the Europeans are so used to their own rules - i.e. it's
inevitable that someone is going to mix the coolant with hard
well water. I used to live in Santa Clara, California, where 2/3
of the water was from wells within the city limits. I measured the
mineral content with an aquarium test kit where the number of drops
of a chemical was used. You keep adding the drops until the mixture
changes color. I stopped adding them after a point where I knew it
was way too hard. This is probably the kind of water European
carmakers design for.

 

[CompUser]

Sounds like an outgrowth of the "myth" of German
engineering at work: "Hmmm... we could build this with four bolts and
use a regular wrench, so let's see if we can build it with 20 and have
to invent two new special tools to reach and turn them. Then call it
'sophisticated engineering.'

LoL on that one. It also hold true with Heckler
& Koch weapons. They're good, but reinventing
the wheel in a previously unimagined format seems
to be an obsession.

Steve

 

[Florian Feuser /FFF/]

Sounds like an outgrowth of the "myth" of German
engineering at work: "Hmmm... we could build this with
four bolts and
use a regular wrench, so let's see if we can build it with
20 and have
to invent two new special tools to reach and turn them.

"Special tools" are usually needed for anything built in imperial measurements.
What's wrong with using the decimal system, lads?

Florian

 

[Rick Courtright]

LoL on that one. It also hold true with Heckler
& Koch weapons. They're good, but reinventing
the wheel in a previously unimagined format seems
to be an obsession.

Yes...

H&K's always been way out of my price range (using the theory that even
with unlimited amounts of money--not my problem!--there's a right price
for everything, which they exceed!) so I'll take your word on their
quality.

For an interesting aside on this obsession, see if you can find the
story on the very first day of the Panzer field trials during WWII. The
Germans were certain they had invented the ultimate tank, and were
laughing themselves silly at the Russians building the T-34s which my
forefathers thought would never run: those Russians aren't smart enough
to build a tank, you know!

Comes Field Trial Day 1, and 246 Panzers were sent out in the morning
for testing. At sundown, 64 were still running. The rest were broken
down, and couldn't be fixed until technicians and parts were brought in
from Berlin to try to get them going again, which was nigh on impossible
under field conditions. (Sound familiar to any owners of current German
cars? The more things change, the more they stay the same?)

You can go to accounts of the war on the Eastern Front to see how the
T-34s fared!

Rick