Chronic brake rotor warping - 2001 Outback Legacy

[Jerry C Shaw]

I have a 2001 Outback Legacy wagon. Discs were shaved at 30K and again at
60K. Complained to dealer and got the brush off even though we had an
extended warranty. Again, at 80K, needed shaving again, and at the
suggestion of a lister on this news group, got organic pads and new rotors
by a thrd party shop. Now, at 90K getting the old familiar vibration upon
braking at higher speeds (> 60mph). The shop says they'll shave them for
free, but there clearly is an engineering design problem, so he called up
Subaru and spoke to a friend, who said this is a known problem with 2001
Outbacks with no known solution. He said some cars have no problems, while
others do. We don't drive our card hard enough to heat up the rotors from
prolonged hard braking or stop-and-go driving.

I've heard that the 2002 and later have a larger braking area, which would
solve the possible overheating and warpage, so I suspect this is well known
to Subaru.

Given that we had a blown driver-side head gasket (fortunately, just before
our 80K extended warranty ran out), and now this, I'm about ready to find
another car maker.

Anyone had the rotor problem?

If so, did you find a solution?

Jerry

 

[Todd H.]

I have a 2001 Outback Legacy wagon. Discs were shaved at 30K and again at
60K. Complained to dealer and got the brush off even though we had an
extended warranty. Again, at 80K, needed shaving again, and at the
suggestion of a lister on this news group, got organic pads and new rotors
by a thrd party shop. Now, at 90K getting the old familiar vibration upon
braking at higher speeds (> 60mph).

Once you cut rotors, they're thinner, and more prone to warping
again.

Sounds like time for fresh rotors, and taking stock of your wheel
torque. A not-uncommon cause of rotor warpage are clue-impaired techs
using air-driven wrenches to tighten lugnuts to the improper torque. A
hand torque wrench is a wise investment.

 

[Jerry C Shaw]

First cutting at 30K on factory new rotors, all dealer servicing. I would
think they would know what torque to use. They also did tire rotation and
new tires. Second cutting at 60K front/rear.

New rotors front and rear at 80K, now 9K later same thing.. Bad design with
too small braking area. Again, read my note.

 

[Dave Null Sr.]

First cutting at 30K on factory new rotors, all dealer servicing. I
would think they would know what torque to use. They also did tire
rotation and > new tires. Second cutting at 60K front/rear.

You would think a mechanic could avoid over-tightening wheel nut/bolts
but it happens quite often as they're too lazy to torque them properly
and it's quicker to simply use the air wrench.

New rotors front and rear at 80K, now 9K later same thing.. Bad design
with too small braking area. Again, read my note.

This topic comes up quite often. It is more likely either the
rotors were not broken in properly or the wheel nut/bolts
were over-torqued.

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm

I haven't had a warped rotor since I started torquing my own wheels.
They used to be common when I took my car to a dealer for servicing
and didn't check and correct the torque.

 

[Edward Hayes]

Sounds like over heated brakes by clamping hard on brakes during cool down
after hard braking. Just too many times to often makes me think maybe a
change in driving habits are in order. Were the calipers check for excessive
dragging? ed

First cutting at 30K on factory new rotors, all dealer servicing. I would
think they would know what torque to use. They also did tire rotation and
new tires. Second cutting at 60K front/rear.

New rotors front and rear at 80K, now 9K later same thing.. Bad design with
too small braking area. Again, read my note.

 

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
If you're replacing with dealer parts(OEM), try sosme after market
rotors. And double check the torque yourself.
Tony

First cutting at 30K on factory new rotors, all dealer servicing. I would
think they would know what torque to use. They also did tire rotation and
new tires. Second cutting at 60K front/rear.

New rotors front and rear at 80K, now 9K later same thing.. Bad design with
too small braking area. Again, read my note.

 

[Mike B.]

2001 Outback with former braking vibration.
Replaced pads with best aftermarkt $43 pads (semi-metalic)
Nothing else. Vibration gone.
51K on former pads. Nothing done to rotors.
Vibration on stopping was worse when brakes were hot.
Had a Chrysler 300M that had rotors go every 25K ...oh that's right
Chrysler...never mind.

Hi,
If you're replacing with dealer parts(OEM), try sosme after market
rotors. And double check the torque yourself.
Tony

 

[Father Guido]

This topic comes up quite often. It is more likely either the
rotors were not broken in properly or the wheel nut/bolts
were over-torqued.

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm

I haven't had a warped rotor since I started torquing my own wheels.
They used to be common when I took my car to a dealer for servicing
and didn't check and correct the torque.

Interesting article, wonder why he didn't mention wheel torque?

Father Guido
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
I plan on living forever... so far, so good

 

[Jim Lofgren]

My 2k Outback had warped rotors due to overtightening wheel lug nuts. Had
the rotors turned myself at 50K and put the best pads on I could find....I
used my own torque wrench this time around....I will never let a shop
tighten them again!...BUY A TORQUE WRENCH!!!

 

[Dave Null Sr.]

Interesting article, wonder why he didn't mention wheel torque?

He does. Paragraph 3: "...to the recommended torque specification..."

There are lots of other articles which talk about the importance
of using a torque wrench. Here's one:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/020109.htm

 

[no mas panzon]

Interesting article, wonder why he didn't mention wheel torque?

Read it again and pay attention to the third paragraph! Looks like he
made his point there about wheel nut torquing.

 

[Steffen Kluge]

This topic comes up quite often. It is more likely either the
rotors were not broken in properly or the wheel nut/bolts
were over-torqued.

What would you consider a reasonable torque to apply to the nuts?
My owners manual doesn't contain anything about this.

Cheers
Steffen.

 

[Jerry C Shaw]

I would agree with you if since the last installation of new rotors and pads
10K ago, the wheels had been touched.

Now here's what leads to the mystery:
1) Had a third party do the brake job, who told me about the overtorquing,
so he knows.
2) He used organic pads and third party top quality rotors (there are 3
grades). I had been told that metallic pads may overheat. My organics stop
fine, it's just now that I'm getting rapid vibration during 60 mph braking..
3) I seldom use the emergency brake so "no clamping on hot rotors after
hard braking", so driving habits are not the issue.
4) How do you "break in rotors properly", as one respondent replied. Use of
organic pads should not require "breaking in". In addition, the warping only
started showing up about 2K ago. You would think if "breaking in" was an
issue, it would result in vibration earlier.
5) I've had several new cars since they came out with disc brakes and this
has never been a problem

Why should consumers be saddled with buying a torque wrench for Subaru cars,
and, if so, why aren't the specs in the owner's manual?

I'm back to bad engineering design.Click and Clack mentioned the industry
use in recent years of too-thin rotors (and maybe poor quality steel) in a
recent program so if overtorquing is the issue, it may prevail with other
brands, too.

Oh well!

Jerry

 

[Dave Null Sr.]

4) How do you "break in rotors properly", as one respondent replied. Use
of organic pads should not require "breaking in". In addition, the
warping only started showing up about 2K ago. You would think if
"breaking in" was an issue, it would result in vibration earlier.

I guess you didn't follow any break-in routine if you didn't know
one existed. Read the article under "Prevention." Pad material
bonds to the rotors unevenly and creates a high spot. This gets
worse over time, but starts probably day one.

5) I've had several new cars since they came out with disc brakes and
this has never been a problem

Why should consumers be saddled with buying a torque wrench for Subaru
cars, and, if so, why aren't the specs in the owner's manual?

I'm back to bad engineering design.Click and Clack mentioned the
industry use in recent years of too-thin rotors (and maybe poor quality
steel) in a recent program so if overtorquing is the issue, it may
prevail with other brands, too.

Which is correct. It is a problem with many cars today.
Manufacturers should be trying to educate mechanics on
why not to use an air wrench, and consumers on how to break-in
their pads and rotors properly.

 

[Dave Null Sr.]

What would you consider a reasonable torque to apply to the nuts?
My owners manual doesn't contain anything about this.

Like most nut and bolt torque specifications, it is in the shop manual.

The spec is quite wide for the torque, but an air wrench is often
well beyond the spec.

 

[Jim Stewart]

Read it again and pay attention to the third paragraph! Looks like he
made his point there about wheel nut torquing.

I appreciate all the good information about not
overtorquing lug nuts. But I beg to differ with
the view that a torque wrench is necessary. I've
rotated my own wheels since I got the car and have
had no brake problems. I use a T lug wrench and
tighten the nuts in a crisscross pattern and with
3 stages of tightning.

I also make sure the nuts and studs are clean and
have a light coat of oil on them. I've never re-
torqued them and I've never had them loosen up.

If you've worked around equipment most of your life,
you develop a pretty good biological torque wrench.

 

[Tony Hwang]

I appreciate all the good information about not
overtorquing lug nuts. But I beg to differ with
the view that a torque wrench is necessary. I've
rotated my own wheels since I got the car and have
had no brake problems. I use a T lug wrench and
tighten the nuts in a crisscross pattern and with
3 stages of tightning.

I also make sure the nuts and studs are clean and
have a light coat of oil on them. I've never re-
torqued them and I've never had them loosen up.

Hi,
OIL? That's big no, no.
You ask any experts. Oiling tire lugs are not a good thing.
Good turque wrench is not that expensive and it's useful for many
things. I have one with micro meter control which cost less than 50.00.
I do tire work at home using air tools(which can cause over torquing)
Having a good air compressor is very handy.
Tony

 

[Edward Hayes]

Never oil lug nuts. Lug nuts have a special coating to enable them to be
torque correctly. Oiling them will give the appearance that the nuts are
torque correctly with a torque wrench when in fact the bolts are over tight.
The coating friction is taken into account when they give you a torque
value. ed

 

[Jim Stewart]

Never oil lug nuts. Lug nuts have a special coating to enable them to be
torque correctly. Oiling them will give the appearance that the nuts are
torque correctly with a torque wrench when in fact the bolts are over tight.
The coating friction is taken into account when they give you a torque
value. ed

Can you cite a reference? Sound like a legend to me.

 

[Bill Putney]

Can you cite a reference? Sound like a legend to me.

I wasn't aware of a special coating either, but maybe so. But Ed's
definitely right that the torque values take into account dry surfaces,
and that if you lube them, all bets are off.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")