Any way to prove the speed of a Subaru in traffic court?

[lolajoker]

I recently got a speeding ticket in my 2000 Subaru Outback 2.5 Auto.
I got the ticket on a very steep incline and was supposedly clocked at
77 mph in a 65 zone. I did not think I was going that fast and have
since tried to duplicate the 77 mph the officer said I was going on
the same road. The fastest I can get my Outback to go on this steep
grade is 67 mph. Is there anyway to prove in court that my car can't
go the speed I was ticketed at?

 

[VanguardLH]

I recently got a speeding ticket in my 2000 Subaru Outback 2.5 Auto.
I got the ticket on a very steep incline and was supposedly clocked
at
77 mph in a 65 zone. I did not think I was going that fast and have
since tried to duplicate the 77 mph the officer said I was going on
the same road. The fastest I can get my Outback to go on this steep
grade is 67 mph. Is there anyway to prove in court that my car can't
go the speed I was ticketed at?

Where you testing when going uphill but got ticketed when going
downhill?

Do you have tires of larger diameter than the stock tires (for which
the speedometer is gauged)?

Tried putting in high octane fuel instead of the normal grade?

Wind against or with you during the test?

Did you turn *off* the A/C during your test?

Was the cop's radar in a moving car at the time he took the
measurement?
Was there heavy winds at the time?
What were the weather conditions at the time?
Any other cars around you, especially driving in the opposite
direction (and big vehicles, like a semi)?

If you decide to show up in court, be sure to notify the court or the
officer that you want to see the calibration record for the serial
number of the unit that he clocked you with (so you can tell when it
last got calibrated). Hell, just showing up in court often means you
win simply because the cop won't show up.

 

[coaster]

I recently got a speeding ticket in my 2000 Subaru Outback 2.5 Auto.
I got the ticket on a very steep incline and was supposedly clocked at
77 mph in a 65 zone. I did not think I was going that fast and have
since tried to duplicate the 77 mph the officer said I was going on
the same road. The fastest I can get my Outback to go on this steep
grade is 67 mph. Is there anyway to prove in court that my car can't
go the speed I was ticketed at?

you would not think of driving without a rear view mirror, yet some people
still drive without a fuzz buster

 

[lolajoker]

Where you testing when going uphill but got ticketed when going
downhill?

No I got ticketed going up hill.

Do you have tires of larger diameter than the stock tires (for which
the speedometer is gauged)?

No, standard tires.

Tried putting in high octane fuel instead of the normal grade?

No. just ran the normal regular 85 octane I always run.

Wind against or with you during the test?

No. It was a clear mild day when I was ticketed and when I've tested.

Did you turn *off* the A/C during your test?

No air conditioner used at either time.

Was the cop's radar in a moving car at the time he took the
measurement?

Cop was stationary using LIDAR.

Was there heavy winds at the time?
No.


What were the weather conditions at the time?

clear and mild.

Any other cars around you, especially driving in the opposite
direction (and big vehicles, like a semi)?

Very light traffic both ways. Only 2 cars going in my direction and
very few going opposite.

If you decide to show up in court, be sure to notify the court or the
officer that you want to see the calibration record for the serial
number of the unit that he clocked you with (so you can tell when it
last got calibrated). Hell, just showing up in court often means you
win simply because the cop won't show up.

What I am trying to find out is if there is a way a Subaru tech or
other Subaru expert could somehow calculate what the top speed a 2000
Outback could go with a non modified 2.5 engine could go on a mile
long steep grade of a certain percentage? I just can't think of a way
to prove my car couldn't have been going that fast barring having the
cop or judge drive my car and try to dupicate my speed (which I know
will never happen). I know there are many ways I can try and defend my
self in court but I know that if the officer shows up, it is very hard
to beat a speeding ticket especially when LIDAR is used.

 

[Dano58]

I recently got a speeding ticket in my 2000 Subaru Outback 2.5 Auto.
I got the ticket on a very steep incline and was supposedly clocked at
77 mph in a 65 zone. I did not think I was going that fast and have
since tried to duplicate the 77 mph the officer said I was going on
the same road. The fastest I can get my Outback to go on this steep
grade is 67 mph. Is there anyway to prove in court that my car can't
go the speed I was ticketed at?

If it were me (and I have done this) I would simply show up at court
and offer to plead guilty to a non-moving violation (you' d have to
look up your state's statutes and find one). That wil probably work,
save you the points but you'd still have to pay the fine.

Dan D
'99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
Central NJ USA

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

you would not think of driving without a rear view mirror, yet some people
still drive without a fuzz buster

Which is illegal EVERYWHERE I drive.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Too bad you didn't have the circumstances I had about 28 years ago.

I was rallying a 1973 Renault R12 (1300cc) up around Peterborough
Ontario.
NAVEX rally- unprepared car - perscribed average speed 43MPH IIRC,
through loose sand on forest roads. (The Renault was the lowest
powered car in the series but managed a 4-3-2 finish for the 3 years
we campaigned it)
I came sliding into the checkpoint, timed to the second, with no
penalties after something like 40 miles since the last checkpoint.
About a minute later, just before I was ready to pull out for the next
stage, a Police cruiser pulled up behind me and the officer jumped out
madder than a wet hen. He claimed he was going to charge me for 85MPH
in a 50 zone.
I looked at him and just about cracked up. He asked what was so funny.
I said the car wouldn't do 85 wide open downhill with a tail wind, and
I could prove to him EXACTLY what my average speed had been for the
last 40 (or whatever) miles. I told him I had averaged 43 MPH, and
would admit to possibly having hit 50-55 MPH once or twice for a very
short stretch, but more importantly to cornering at close to 40MPH. If
he was doing 85 trying to CATCH up to me, and cornering with his LTD
at about 2MPH, I could see that, but no way was he doing that to KEEP
up with me. I referred him to the check-point marshall and told him
We'd see him in court if he wanted to lay the charge.

At the end of the rally the checkpoint crews were having a good laugh.
The poor copper had NO IDEA where he was - whether he was even still
in Ontario or not. They had to give him detailed directions (they gave
him the rally instructions) to get him back to the highway, where he
was WELL out of his local jurisdiction.

 

[duncanmcrae]

What I am trying to find out is if there is a way a Subaru tech or
other Subaru expert could somehow calculate what the top speed a 2000
Outback could go with a non modified 2.5 engine could go on a mile
long steep grade of a certain percentage? I just can't think of a way
to prove my car couldn't have been going that fast barring having the
cop or judge drive my car and try to dupicate my speed (which I know
will never happen). I know there are many ways I can try and defend my
self in court but I know that if the officer shows up, it is very hard
to beat a speeding ticket especially when LIDAR is used.

High-school maths...

gravitational potential energy = mass.g.height

So on a theta-degree grade at velocity v...

power (P) = m.g.v.sin(theta)

for 1250kg car, 77mph (34.4m/s), 5 degree grade (~1:11), g ~ 10m/s^2,
you'll need

P = 1250 x 10 x 34.4 x sin(5)
~ 37kW


Not sure what revs you do at 77mph, maybe 3500rpm?

What power does the 2.5 generate at those revs.. approx 70kW? Take
about 20% off that for drivetrain losses, so say 56kW atw.

Subtract the amount of power required to push the car through the air,
no idea what that is. From this site, http://phors.locost7.info/phors06.htm,
we can guess at about 15kW.

So our theoretical car (with 41kW excess at the wheels at 77mph),
could probably do up a 5.5degree grade (1:10.5) at 77mph. (asin(41e3/
(1250 x 10 x 34.4) ~ 5.5deg)

Adjust for more sane numbers as you acquire them.

 

[Bugalugs]

Too bad you didn't have the circumstances I had about 28 years ago.

I was rallying a 1973 Renault R12 (1300cc) up around Peterborough
Ontario.
NAVEX rally- unprepared car - perscribed average speed 43MPH IIRC,
through loose sand on forest roads. (The Renault was the lowest
powered car in the series but managed a 4-3-2 finish for the 3 years
we campaigned it)
I came sliding into the checkpoint, timed to the second, with no
penalties after something like 40 miles since the last checkpoint.
About a minute later, just before I was ready to pull out for the next
stage, a Police cruiser pulled up behind me and the officer jumped out
madder than a wet hen. He claimed he was going to charge me for 85MPH
in a 50 zone.
I looked at him and just about cracked up. He asked what was so funny.
I said the car wouldn't do 85 wide open downhill with a tail wind, and
I could prove to him EXACTLY what my average speed had been for the
last 40 (or whatever) miles. I told him I had averaged 43 MPH, and
would admit to possibly having hit 50-55 MPH once or twice for a very
short stretch, but more importantly to cornering at close to 40MPH. If
he was doing 85 trying to CATCH up to me, and cornering with his LTD
at about 2MPH, I could see that, but no way was he doing that to KEEP
up with me. I referred him to the check-point marshall and told him
We'd see him in court if he wanted to lay the charge.

At the end of the rally the checkpoint crews were having a good laugh.
The poor copper had NO IDEA where he was - whether he was even still
in Ontario or not. They had to give him detailed directions (they gave
him the rally instructions) to get him back to the highway, where he
was WELL out of his local jurisdiction.

Similar thing happened to me. Had just left a town and had about 20/30
miles of steep winding hill (Rimutakas) before next town. Average speed
was doable. Dipped my lights for an oncomming car which was this copper.
He swung around & pulled me over claiming that my headlights were
moving/shaky/illegal. Had to show him that 6v headlights on a 55 VW
couldn't move (or do anything) and then get a lecture on road safety.
All the time my navigator is calling out the minutes we were falling
behind. And following competitors were tooting and waving as they went
past.

This was about hour 3 of a 30 trial/rally.

When he finally let me go it was the fastest I have ever been over that
hill. :>) Motor was stock but heaps of negative camber on the rear
wheels and running Michelin Xs all round. (this was a while ago and
radials were very very rare)

 

[lolajoker]

<<<High-school maths...
gravitational potential energy = mass.g.height
So on a theta-degree grade at velocity v...
power (P) = m.g.v.sin(theta)
for 1250kg car, 77mph (34.4m/s), 5 degree grade (~1:11), g ~ 10m/s^2,
you'll need
P = 1250 x 10 x 34.4 x sin(5)
      ~ 37kW
Not sure what revs you do at 77mph, maybe 3500rpm?
What power does the 2.5 generate at those revs.. approx 70kW? Take about
20% off that for drivetrain losses, so say 56kW atw.
Subtract the amount of power required to push the car through the air,
no idea what that is. From this site,
http://phors.locost7.info/phors06.htm, we can guess at about 15kW.
So our theoretical car (with 41kW excess at the wheels at 77mph), could
probably do up a 5.5degree grade (1:10.5) at 77mph. (asin(41e3/ (1250 x
10 x 34.4) ~ 5.5deg)
Adjust for more sane numbers as you acquire them.>>>

Also have to take into account that I am in Colorado. This occured
between Denver and Boulder so factor in an altitude on between 5000 and
6000 ft.

 

[Lyle Chase]

Buy, bum, borrow, beg or steal a GPS unit.
Lyle.

 

[VanguardLH]

What I am trying to find out is if there is a way a Subaru tech or
other Subaru expert could somehow calculate what the top speed a
2000
Outback could go with a non modified 2.5 engine could go on a mile
long steep grade of a certain percentage? I just can't think of a
way
to prove my car couldn't have been going that fast barring having
the
cop or judge drive my car and try to dupicate my speed (which I know
will never happen). I know there are many ways I can try and defend
my
self in court but I know that if the officer shows up, it is very
hard
to beat a speeding ticket especially when LIDAR is used.

Did you ask the officer to see the reading on the device used to
measure your speed and upon which that officer made the decision that
you were speeding? If so, did he refuse to show you the reading? Was
the device already reset? Was the device in his car or was he a 2nd
unit that merely got radioed the speed? Let the cop understand that
you will demand the evidence in court, but only mention that and never
afterward indicate whether or not you will show up in court. You'd be
surprised at how many times the officer never gets informed or elects
not to show up.

If you believe that you cannot attain the speed that the officer
claims (and you are willing to risk another ticket), take a friend
along who is willing to show up in court and testify as to what
maximum speed you able to attain on that section of road. However,
did you ever ask the cop as to just exactly WHERE he made his
measurement? Maybe you weren't even on the hill when he snapped the
trigger. The ticket should stipulate the location. Is it on the
hill? Is it at a reasonable distance up the hill so that any higher
speed before the hill would have been trimmed off by that point noted
on the ticket? Does the ticket actually have a specific location (as
a distance marker or intersection) or does it just list the road you
were on?

 

[duncanmcrae]

Also have to take into account that I am in Colorado. This occured
between Denver and Boulder so factor in an altitude on between 5000 and
6000 ft.

"left an as exercise for the reader"

 

[William Martin]

I recently got a speeding ticket in my 2000 Subaru Outback 2.5 Auto.
I got the ticket on a very steep incline and was supposedly clocked at
77 mph in a 65 zone. I did not think I was going that fast and have
since tried to duplicate the 77 mph the officer said I was going on
the same road. The fastest I can get my Outback to go on this steep
grade is 67 mph. Is there anyway to prove in court that my car can't
go the speed I was ticketed at?

I usually travel with a GPS unit that records my speed every 20 seconds
or so. This would be good evidence to show the traffic court, except I
am usually speeding by at least a few miles and hour. It would allow
you to make sure your speedometer is accurate (mine is right on, but a
Ford Fairmont I once had was over by about 10%).

The "my car doesn't go that fast uphill" defense would have worked for
my 1986 Subaru GL wagon and a 1966 VW bug I once had.

If I were you, I would show up in court and, if the officer appeared
with accurate data, ask for a reduced speed. Because anything under 10
MPH is not reported to the insurance company, you might try "70 in a
65." A charge of 77 in a 65 is going to prompt your insurance carrier
to raise your rates.

Hope this helps,

Bill

 

[D D]

You could have someone video tape you driving up the hill. Show the
road, show your foot to the floor, show your speedometer.

 

[Zeppo]

You could have someone video tape you driving up the hill. Show the
road, show your foot to the floor, show your speedometer.

However, if the speed you do attain on tape is over the speed limit (even by
a few miles an hour), be prepared to accept another ticket based on the
video evidence you are going to submit.

Jon

 

[Sheldon]

I recently got a speeding ticket in my 2000 Subaru Outback 2.5 Auto.
I got the ticket on a very steep incline and was supposedly clocked at
77 mph in a 65 zone. I did not think I was going that fast and have
since tried to duplicate the 77 mph the officer said I was going on
the same road. The fastest I can get my Outback to go on this steep
grade is 67 mph. Is there anyway to prove in court that my car can't
go the speed I was ticketed at?

We had a local high school kid here get a ticket for speeding. He claimed
that he was accelerating from a red light, and the car wouldn't get to that
speed in that short a stretch. A little physics got him off, using the
distance the cop stopped him at from the light and the specs on the car.
So, you can get off, but it takes some doing. You'd have to work out the
formulas and the cars specs and do the math.

Try the same experiment with a friend in the car, and bring them as a
witness. Offer to let anyone in the court drive your car up the same hill.
If anyone can reproduce the speed the cop clocked offer to pay double the
fine and take double the points. Only an idiot, or someone who is
absolutely right will do that. Problem is, they can say you rigged the car
for the test.

Were there any other cars around? It's easy to lock radar onto the wrong
car, and radar will tend to pick up the larger vehicle or the faster
vehicle.

BTW, if the cop doesn't show you automatically win, and it happens all the
time.

 

[lolajoker]

<<<Offer to let anyone in the court drive your car up the same hill. If
anyone can reproduce the speed the cop clocked offer to pay double the
fine and take double the points. Only an idiot, or someone who is
absolutely right will do that. Problem is, they can say you rigged the
car for the test.>>>

At the time of the stop I aked the officer to do that and he declined
saying that he wasn't allowed to do that. Then he added, I know you wre
speeding, LIDAR doesn't lie.

One solution I've been thinking about is taking my car in for service at
this Subaru mechanic near there and have him test the car up the hill.
Then get a letter from him confirming the top speed of the car.

 

[Sheldon]

<<<Offer to let anyone in the court drive your car up the same hill. If
anyone can reproduce the speed the cop clocked offer to pay double the
fine and take double the points. Only an idiot, or someone who is
absolutely right will do that. Problem is, they can say you rigged the
car for the test.>>>

At the time of the stop I aked the officer to do that and he declined
saying that he wasn't allowed to do that. Then he added, I know you wre
speeding, LIDAR doesn't lie.

One solution I've been thinking about is taking my car in for service at
this Subaru mechanic near there and have him test the car up the hill.
Then get a letter from him confirming the top speed of the car.

Might help. Remember the statement the cop made (they write down everything
you said), and do some research on that particular gun. None of them are
perfect, and the manufacturers explain that in their literature. What you
need to do is put some doubt into the officer's statement. Right now it's
you against a number on a radar gun. Generally that's not a very strong
case unless you said something to the cop to nail it down. "I don't know
how fast I was going," is not a good thing to say. If you didn't know it
gives a lot of credence to the officer's statement.

Good luck.

 

[Rick Courtright]

I was rallying a 1973 Renault R12 (1300cc) up around Peterborough

Hi,

Reminds me of a story told by a friend's wife. She was in college (~40
yrs ago?) and had a "tired" Renault Dauphine (some of you guys will
remember those!) Got a ticket for going too fast UPHILL.

She went to court, handed her keys to the bailiff, and told the judge
"Your Honor, I was ticketed going uphill. Here are the keys to my car.
If you can get it to go as fast DOWNHILL as the officer claims I was
going, I'll be glad to pay the fine. Otherwise, I'm not guilty."

It was a small town, and the judge knew the hill well. He asked what
kind of car she was driving. When she told him, he started laughing and
dismissed the case right then and there!

Rick