Acute engine failure in 2001 Forester with 135k miles

[Charles Packer]

My wife's 2001 Forester ran all right for a week after
the right side head gasket was replaced (the left side was
done six months ago). Then, while she was driving on the
parkway, as she told me, she heard a rattle that within
a few seconds became a clatter, and then the engine died
on the exit ramp. When I went to her aid, I found that the
engine would start, but banged and wiggled as if at least
one cylinder was dead. We barely got the car out of
traffic into a nearby parking lot. Our mechanic said the
engine was gone and replacing it would cost less than
tearing it down to diagnose and repair.

In the weeks before the last head gasket replacement,
the car overheated several times on 100-degree days while
my wife was using the air conditioner. On these occasions
she says she turned off the air conditioner and the
temperature backed off. This was all in spite of my best
efforts to keep the coolant topped up. I'm wondering what
allowing this to occur contributed to the final catastrophe.

Anyway, a replacement engine with 68K miles on it and an
unlimited 6-month warranty with installation will cost
$2477.

 

[Yousuf Khan]

My wife's 2001 Forester ran all right for a week after
the right side head gasket was replaced (the left side was
done six months ago). Then, while she was driving on the
parkway, as she told me, she heard a rattle that within
a few seconds became a clatter, and then the engine died
on the exit ramp. When I went to her aid, I found that the
engine would start, but banged and wiggled as if at least
one cylinder was dead. We barely got the car out of
traffic into a nearby parking lot. Our mechanic said the
engine was gone and replacing it would cost less than
tearing it down to diagnose and repair.

In the weeks before the last head gasket replacement,
the car overheated several times on 100-degree days while
my wife was using the air conditioner. On these occasions
she says she turned off the air conditioner and the
temperature backed off. This was all in spite of my best
efforts to keep the coolant topped up. I'm wondering what
allowing this to occur contributed to the final catastrophe.

Anyway, a replacement engine with 68K miles on it and an
unlimited 6-month warranty with installation will cost
$2477.

Interesting, something similar happened to my brother's 2001 Pontiac
Grand Prix. They talked about replacing the engine too, but we just
decided to junk it. At nearly $2500 for an engine replacement, I don't
think you'll make that money back on the car if you were to sell it. Why
not call it a night on the old bird?

Yousuf Khan

 

[John McGaw]

My wife's 2001 Forester ran all right for a week after
the right side head gasket was replaced (the left side was
done six months ago). Then, while she was driving on the
parkway, as she told me, she heard a rattle that within
a few seconds became a clatter, and then the engine died
on the exit ramp. When I went to her aid, I found that the
engine would start, but banged and wiggled as if at least
one cylinder was dead. We barely got the car out of
traffic into a nearby parking lot. Our mechanic said the
engine was gone and replacing it would cost less than
tearing it down to diagnose and repair.

In the weeks before the last head gasket replacement,
the car overheated several times on 100-degree days while
my wife was using the air conditioner. On these occasions
she says she turned off the air conditioner and the
temperature backed off. This was all in spite of my best
efforts to keep the coolant topped up. I'm wondering what
allowing this to occur contributed to the final catastrophe.

Anyway, a replacement engine with 68K miles on it and an
unlimited 6-month warranty with installation will cost
$2477.

If the engine was in a state where you had to make your "best efforts to
keep the coolant topped up" then there was obviously something serious
going on. Warped head(s)? Cracked head or block? Both head gaskets rather
than one leaking? The possibilities seem endless. I'd say that the price
you quote is enough to make me choke but it has been a long time since I've
had to have such a transplant done so it may be a fine price. If it were
mine and everything else on the car was in satisfactory condition then I'd
probably go ahead and do the deed. If the car was not otherwise
satisfactory I'd probably be looking for an excuse to replace it and the
engine would probably do the trick. Ten years of age seems to be a tipping
point.

 

[S]

Hi Charles!

My wife's 2001 Forester ran all right for a week after
the right side head gasket was replaced (the left side was
done six months ago). Then, while she was driving on the
parkway, as she told me, she heard a rattle that within
a few seconds became a clatter, and then the engine died
on the exit ramp. When I went to her aid, I found that the
engine would start, but banged and wiggled as if at least
one cylinder was dead. We barely got the car out of
traffic into a nearby parking lot. Our mechanic said the
engine was gone and replacing it would cost less than
tearing it down to diagnose and repair.

In the weeks before the last head gasket replacement,
the car overheated several times on 100-degree days while
my wife was using the air conditioner. On these occasions
she says she turned off the air conditioner and the
temperature backed off. This was all in spite of my best
efforts to keep the coolant topped up. I'm wondering what
allowing this to occur contributed to the final catastrophe.

Anyway, a replacement engine with 68K miles on it and an
unlimited 6-month warranty with installation will cost
$2477.

I'd be having conversation with the shop that did the head gasket.

And take the darned thing somewhere else for diagnosis, here's why:

Rod or valve train failures (knocking/rattling) rarely happen
instantaneously, but rather get gradually worse over time. What I
_have_ seen fail as you describe are the timing belt idler pulleys,
particularly the cogged one below the tensioner, as it is under a
considerable load. The symptoms match what you are describing pretty
much exactly, and if I were a gambling man . . .

Whoever did the head gasket had the timing belt off, and should have
had the good sense to check/replace the idlers (and timing belt, _and_
water pump FWIW), while he was in there. Standard procedure.

In any event, it's really not all that much trouble to check for a bad
idler pulley, you do have to remove the accessory belts, and then the
timing belt covers, but a decent mechanic should be able to accomplish
this in a couple of hours tops. If a pulley has, as I expect, failed,
all pulleys should be removed, and if less than perfect, should be
replaced, and a new timing belt installed. This amounts to a couple
hundred $$$ in parts, and another hour's work or so. I'm guessing the
car probably has 120K to 150K miles on it by now? Water pump, and
front oil seal (or maybe even a complete oil pump) are all worthwhile
things to do while this part of the engine is apart. Again, whoever
did the head gasket should have at least suggested this work.

That said, you should be able to find a decent used engine for $1,000
to $1,500, try ebay if nothing else:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/96-9...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Installation will generally run about $500. If you do it the "right"
way you will install a new clutch and new hoses while you are at it,
which could possibly bring you up to around the $2,500 mark. If this
isn't included in the estimate, your mechanic is looking to get a
piece of you ("Cost's more to diagnose than to replace"; BS. You be
the judge of your mechanics integrity). Alas, this sort of pillage is
all too common

Hope this proves helpful.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[Charles Packer]

I'd be having conversation with the shop that did the head gasket.

And take the darned thing somewhere else for diagnosis, here's why:

Rod or valve train failures (knocking/rattling) rarely happen
instantaneously, but rather get gradually worse over time. What I
_have_ seen fail as you describe are the timing belt idler pulleys,
particularly the cogged one below the tensioner, as it is under a
considerable load. The symptoms match what you are describing pretty
much exactly, and if I were a gambling man . . .

Whoever did the head gasket had the timing belt off, and should have
had the good sense to check/replace the idlers (and timing belt, _and_
water pump FWIW), while he was in there. Standard procedure.

I asked the mechanic if there might have been a timing
belt problem. He said, no, because then the engine
wouldn't start at all. He had done the routine belt
replacement last year. He had replaced the water pump,
but there's no indication on the work order that he
replaced tensioners, etc. I've worried about the level of his
diagnostic skills, but there are no other shops -- of any
quality -- located so close to us. The car had to be towed
in -- there is limited oppotunity in that situation to take
it around and find a good diagnostician!

Since the engine is the interference type, I figure that
even if there was a belt tension problem, the engine was
pretty much destroyed anyway. The car is otherwise in
excellent shape, so it's worth it to replace the engine.
If there's still a timing system problem this time, when he turns
the key he'll (sigh) find out about it then.

 

[.._..]

My wife's 2001 Forester ran all right for a week after
the right side head gasket was replaced (the left side was
done six months ago). Then, while she was driving on the
parkway, as she told me, she heard a rattle that within
a few seconds became a clatter, and then the engine died
on the exit ramp. When I went to her aid, I found that the
engine would start, but banged and wiggled as if at least
one cylinder was dead. We barely got the car out of
traffic into a nearby parking lot. Our mechanic said the
engine was gone and replacing it would cost less than
tearing it down to diagnose and repair.

In the weeks before the last head gasket replacement,
the car overheated several times on 100-degree days while
my wife was using the air conditioner. On these occasions
she says she turned off the air conditioner and the
temperature backed off. This was all in spite of my best
efforts to keep the coolant topped up. I'm wondering what
allowing this to occur contributed to the final catastrophe.

Anyway, a replacement engine with 68K miles on it and an
unlimited 6-month warranty with installation will cost
$2477.

Couple things to add to what the other posters have said:

The Subaru thermostat on that year 2001 uses a progressive thermostat that
is supposed to open in a different sequnece than the regular off the shelf
ones. (If I recall correctly, the difference is the Subaru will open slowly
as the engine gets hotter, and normal ones just "open" or "close")

When my gaskets were replaced, they put in a regular one, but it ends up
making it run just slightly too cool (the needle gets to low-warm and stays
there).

So that's one thing that could be off.

Number two; that model ALSO has the coolant top loop that has a nasty
tendancy to get air bubbles in it. (There is a blog out there that details
the problem.) That being handing off "fill that car with coolant" to the
noob mechanic can lead to a large air bubble in the cooling system. Which
may have turned around and caused a hotspot in your newly or partially fixed
motor.

IF YOU WERE LOSING COOLANT, though, they did not fix it correctly the first
time around. So it really depends on how much you put in over what time
period. Topping it off a bit after engine work makes sense, needing to put
in two cups every week does not. Mine had two leaks, one outside gasket
leak, and one "down the pipe" leak that both needed correcting.

At this point, yeah, you are probably right on the line between "not worth
it" and "get a refirb motor". If you go for the repair, make sure they get
the idea the coolant is not a thing to treat lightly, you HAVE to know how
to put it in right.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

I asked the mechanic if there might have been a timing
belt problem. He said, no, because then the engine
wouldn't start at all. He had done the routine belt
replacement last year. He had replaced the water pump,
but there's no indication on the work order that he
replaced tensioners, etc.  I've worried about the level of his
diagnostic skills, but there are no other shops --  of any
quality -- located so close to us. The car had to be towed
in -- there is limited oppotunity in that situation to take
it around and find a good diagnostician!

Since the engine is the interference type, I figure that
even if there was a belt tension problem, the engine was
pretty much destroyed anyway. The car is otherwise in
excellent shape, so it's worth it to replace the engine.
If there's still a timing system problem this time, when he turns
the key  he'll (sigh) find out about it then.

If you elect to replace the engine, I've read (no connection to them,
never used their services) that CCR is a long-time soob engine
rebuilder. seem to have a good reputation too. maybe check their
prices;
http://www.ccrengines.com/

fyi

Carl

 

[S]

Hi Again, Charles!

I asked the mechanic if there might have been a timing
belt problem. He said, no, because then the engine
wouldn't start at all. He had done the routine belt
replacement last year. He had replaced the water pump,
but there's no indication on the work order that he
replaced tensioners, etc. I've worried about the level of his
diagnostic skills, but there are no other shops -- of any
quality -- located so close to us. The car had to be towed
in -- there is limited oppotunity in that situation to take
it around and find a good diagnostician!

Since the engine is the interference type, I figure that
even if there was a belt tension problem, the engine was
pretty much destroyed anyway. The car is otherwise in
excellent shape, so it's worth it to replace the engine.
If there's still a timing system problem this time, when he turns
the key he'll (sigh) find out about it then.

IMO, you _should_ be worried about your mechanic. A failure of the
idler pulley bearing will frequently leave the timing belt in place,
but may cause it to jump a cog or two. The engine will then start and
run, but it will make a horrible noise; sounds for all the world like
a bad rod. If the timing belt has moved, it will run real rough as
well.

I've seen this a couple of times. My daily driver is a '99 Forester
that I got off of a tow truck with the exact symptoms described. The
owner's mechanic had told her that the engine had a bad rod and wasn't
worth repairing. Lazy, or ignorant, but inexcusable. Guess I shouldn't
complain, but damn.

My buddy owns a Subaru salvage yard. He once showed me a 2.5L SOHC
that _had_ grenaded as a result of a timing belt idler failure (chunks
of idler bearing were embedded in the block), but in this instance it
had caused the timing belt to derail, which allowed the good 'ol
interference head design to do it's thing You could see something
bad had happened, 'cause the timing belt covers were mangled.That one
wouldn't have started.

FWIW, when I did the routine timing belt replacement on my wife's '02
Forry at ~120K, the same cogged idler was in the process of failing,
and the rest were none too good . . .

So did your mechanic drain the oil to check for metal flakes/chunks?
Did he run a compression test? Did he pull the valve covers to check
for a bent valve? We know he didn't check the timing belt system. Now
I'm not saying that he's necessarily wrong, mind you, but it doesn't
sound like he has done enough diagnostic work to flat-out declare "bad
engine". And a Subaru engine swap is actually pretty easy; I'll do 'em
all day long for $500 a go; put on a new clutch for ya too while I'm
at it. Can you say "gravy train"?

I'd try craigs list or other local classifieds to see if you cant find
an honest independent mechanic. (An honest wrench will tell you the
same story I have.) Or tell us where you are; maybe somebody on the
group can make a recommendation.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[Charles Packer]

I'd try craigs list or other local classifieds to see if you cant find
an honest independent mechanic. (An honest wrench will tell you the
same story I have.) Or tell us where you are; maybe somebody on the
group can make a recommendation.

I don't doubt our mechanic's honesty at all. But it's
evident by now that he's not up to tricky diagnostics.
I would give greater weight to a personal recommendation
than to a Craigslist ad. And that means a reccomendation
from somebody who actually knows the mechanic and is a
satisfied customer. I'm in Washington, D.C.

 

[johninky]

I don't doubt our mechanic's honesty at all. But it's
evident by now that he's not up to tricky diagnostics.
I would give greater weight to a personal recommendation
than to a Craigslist ad. And that means a reccomendation
from somebody who actually knows the mechanic and is a
satisfied customer. I'm in Washington, D.C.

Take a ride out to The Plains, VA for a honest mechanic. Don't know
if my old friend still has his shop there, been a bunch of years since
I lived there, but he is as honest as the day is long. Only repair
shop in town so no problem finding if still there. Ask around for
Mike Armstrong. Mention to Mike I know him from the days when I lived
in The Glebe,