A diesel Subaru is on its way...finally

[MN]

Here is a recent article were they mention two powerplants
being developed for sale in Europe. I think demand in US
should be high as well now that gas prices are so high and
Congress has pass tax cut/deduction for purchase of alternative
fuel diesel/hybrid cars.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3397729a30,00.html

MN

 

[nothermark]

Problem with Diesel in the US is that it now costs more than gasoline
due to taxes in a lot of areas. Don't get me wrong, I owned a diesel
and like them. I just recognize that the cost advantage has been
heavily reduced by increased state taxes and diesel fuel requirements
and higher maintenance schedule.

 

[Charles Leblanc]

Do not get your hopes up,

Diesel is very different in Japan and in Europe.

In Japan and Euroipe, they have an extremly low sulphure content

Here, despite making HUGE profits, the petrolium industry still doesn't
remove the sulphure from the diesel.

The result is that there is also no diesel cars imported... and we all know
tghe reliability issues of the VW diesel compared to other engine.

I went to Europe a few years back and almost all of the compact cars had a
2.0L diesel engine available. Here, despite being the #1 market in the
world, we do not get them and we only get a fraction of the engine
selection available in europe.

Also, Toyota and Nissan have direct injection petrolium engine in europe
and there is about 7 engine choices for the Mazda3 in europe.

Here we get 5000lbs trucks with 300bhp engine and also 300hp family sedan.

Charles Leblanc
Impreza 2.2L

 

[Pete Schaefer]

Any idea how the allowed sulphur content in California compares to that in
Europe? I know the standard is different in my state, requiring special
refining, driving the cost up when it should be lower than galoline.

 

[MN]

Do not get your hopes up,

Diesel is very different in Japan and in Europe.

In Japan and Euroipe, they have an extremly low sulphure content

Here, despite making HUGE profits, the petrolium industry still doesn't
remove the sulphure from the diesel.

The result is that there is also no diesel cars imported... and we all
know
tghe reliability issues of the VW diesel compared to other engine.

I went to Europe a few years back and almost all of the compact cars had a
2.0L diesel engine available. Here, despite being the #1 market in the
world, we do not get them and we only get a fraction of the engine
selection available in europe.

Also, Toyota and Nissan have direct injection petrolium engine in europe
and there is about 7 engine choices for the Mazda3 in europe.

Here we get 5000lbs trucks with 300bhp engine and also 300hp family sedan.

Charles Leblanc
Impreza 2.2L

There is hope. Soon there will be low sulphur diesel
fuel available in the States and with it, I presume, a flood
of imported diesel cars.

The only obstacle I see is if somehow, by some cabal, the
big interests in Detroit decide to back hybrid electric to the
detriment of diesel. GM has 20% stake in Subaru, so they can
probably kill-veto bringing to US any Subaru diesel if they only
wanted to. Same goes for other brands they control or have a
big stake in, Opel, Saab, Volvo (?). Likewise with Ford and its
web of influence spanning Mazda, Jaguar, and other makes.

DaimlerChrysler seemed to have already decided to go for diesel,
they are selling a European engine in the US in their Jeep Liberty
(CRD model- Common Rail Diesel).

Things appear to be set for a change.

Federal tax deduction (or I think it is some cut), is already here!
Maximum will be $2400, or something like that, depending on
vehicle/engine size. Individual states will likely follow suit with
tax breaks/incentives of their own, once the Feds get going.

It is true that diesel in US. is not cheaper than gasoline but
if tax breaks eliminate the added cost of a diesel engine
purchase, the better milage will provide continuous savings
and popular demand. Maintenance costs for a diesel I think
are not much different than for a gasoline engine, there are no
spark plugs/wires to change, fewer tune-ups (anything else?).

Here is an EPA link and quote:

http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/diesel/420f05029.htm
Background
In January 2001 and in June 2004, EPA finalized the Clean Diesel Trucks and
Buses Rule and the Clean Nonroad Diesel Rule, respectively, with more
stringent standards for new diesel engines and fuels. The rules require the
use of lower sulfur fuels beginning in 2006 for highway diesel fuel, and
2007 for nonroad diesel fuel. These fuels will enable the use of
aftertreatment technologies for new diesel engines, which can reduce harmful
emissions by 90 percent or more. Aftertreatment technologies will start
phasing into the diesel sector beginning in 2007 for highway and 2011 for
nonroad. These programs will yield enormous long-term benefits for public
health and the environment.

 

[ed]

Here's an article from the Driving section of our newspaper that sheds some
light on diesel fuel costs.






Fuel for thought: It may not be time to buy a diesel car





BY MICHAEL D.TUSIANI



WASHINGTON . Automakers are eager to sell you a diesel-powered vehicle. One
of their responses to the rising price of gasoline has been to tell
motorists they can keep their large, powerful vehicles and at the same time
save on fuel by buying a car or truck that bums diesel instead of gasoline.



Meantime, a new U.S. energy bill establishes a tax credit as large as $3,400
for diesels, matching the break the U.S. will allow for hybrids.



Diesel-fuelled vehicles do afford somewhat better mileage and may not
require as much maintenance as gasoline-burners. But now and for years to
come, the refining industry simply cannot produce enough diesel fuel to
accommodate a significant increase in the number of vehicles that burn it.



At this year's auto show in New York, a DaimlerChrysler executive
responsible for research and technology cited the success of diesel-engine
automobiles in Europe while suggesting these vehicles could gain a five to
10 percent share of the U.S. market. His comments came with the introduction
of a Mercedes-Benz station wagon scheduled to land in the U.S. in 2006. He
did not mention, however, that the popularity of diesel-powered autos are
pushing up diesel oil prices in Europe as demand pushes past supply.



European governments, working with automakers, have persuaded their citizens
to replace gasoline-powered cars with diesel. They set tax rates to render
diesel fuel cheaper than gasoline. But oil companies had no reason to invest
in additional equipment for diesel production. Demand for diesel therefore
bumps against the limit of supply. The marketplace will remedy such a
situation, but it will be slow (because building new refining equipment
takes time) and painful (because high cost fuel hurts the financially weak
the most).



Refineries can make either a high yield of diesel or a high yield of
gasoline, but hot both. European refiners built their equipment before
governments started manipulating the fuel market. To date, they have
declined to scrap money-making gasoline production units worth billions of
dollars and replace them with more expensive diesel hardware.



But the market flirts with inducing such reinvestment. On a pretax basis,
diesel has become much more expensive than gasoline in Europe. In five
years, European refineries may complete the construction of equipment to
significantly increase diesel oil output.



In the meantime, Europe will have to import ever larger quantities of
diesel - that is, if it can find supply. Europe has raised its diesel
quality standards to such a high level that few re-fineries in the world can
manufacture an acceptable product. Interestingly, the United States can.
During a few months last winter, U.S. refiners quietly shipped diesel to
Europe. Because of U.S. demand, that could not continue.



These exports undoubtedly raised prices in North America while they lasted.
The U.S. burns diesel mostly for commercial transportation. As the economy
expands, more will be needed for trucks and locomotives to transport goods.
In 2004 trucks and other diesel-burning vehicles required about 150,000
barrels per day more than in 2003 - a one-year increase of almost five per
cent.



Like their European counter-parts, North American refiners have not seen any
reason to invest in greater diesel production. In fact, they have a strong
disincentive to build diesel-making equipment: Unless refiners can increase
crude oil processing capacity, which seems unlikely, making more diesel will
reduce gasoline production. Furthermore, they have gasoline production
hardware that has only recently started to make solid profits for them as
the price of gasoline rose this spring and summer.



In Canada, refiners produce a higher ratio of diesel to gasoline, and export
high-quality diesel to the U.S. If Canadian motorists increased purchases of
diesel autos, the country could supply their fuel needs to some extent by
reducing exports. But the ability to do that depends on which country would
pay the highest price for the fuel.



For diesel-powered autos and light trucks to achieve a market share of five
to 10 per cent, U.S. motorists must be compelled to buy 800,000 to 1.7
million of them per year. We do not have the spare diesel production
capacity to cope with the additional demand that would produce, and we will
not have it for quite some time.



Give North American refiners about 10 years and they might significantly
increase diesel production capacity. It would take about that long to plan
new projects and run the regulatory and litigation gantlet. Until then, a
motorist buying one will have to compete for expensive diesel fuel in an
increasingly tight market.



In the meantime, diesels do not increase motorists' practical choices. If
the U.S. energy bill had provided new sources of diesel fuel, it might have
done some good. As it is, that $3,400 tax credit could just tempt drivers to
make a mistake.





MICHAEL D. TUSIANI provides brokerage and consulting services to the oil,
gas and maritime industries.

He is a senior fellow at Columbia University's Center for Energy, Marine
Transportation and Public Policy.

This column originally appeared in the Washington Post.

 

[bigjim]

I want a diesel wrangler unlimited

 

[nothermark]

You might also factor in that the US gov't has passed new restrictions
on diesel fuel that rival Europe's. We have not built a new refinery
in around 20 years because the legal costs exceed the actual cost of
building the plant. So the refiners are supposed to produce cleaner
diesel with old plants already running at capacity. AFAIK this will
also impact jet fuel and home heating oil as they all come out of the
same process.

BTW, for the biodiesel folks you also need to figure out how many
customers micky feeds with that 20 gals of oil every week. That will
let you approximate the availability per customer.

Reality 1 is that the owner or his brother in law will get the oil and
the rest of us won't.

Reallity 2 is that interupting the used grease stream will have other
unexpected results. Right now it's an industrial commodity like used
motor oil. It's bought and recycled into numerous other products we
use in everyday life.

Just pointing out that life is not as simple as some folks like to
tell us it is.

;-)

 

[Steve Bukosky]

wanted to. Same goes for other brands they control or have a
big stake in, Opel, Saab, Volvo (?).

I don't know about Volvo, don't think so. However, Isuzu is part GM
hence the engine envolvement.

 

[Steve Bukosky]

Here is a recent article were they mention two powerplants
being developed for sale in Europe. I think demand in US
should be high as well now that gas prices are so high and
Congress has pass tax cut/deduction for purchase of alternative
fuel diesel/hybrid cars.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3397729a30,00.html

Ok. That got my attention. I've got two years before I think about
buying a new car. I'll keep my hopes high.

 

[Matthias Hunstock]

It is true that diesel in US. is not cheaper than gasoline but
if tax breaks eliminate the added cost of a diesel engine
purchase, the better milage will provide continuous savings
and popular demand.

the absolute consumption of diesel engines (liters per miles) can
be smaller than gas engines. european values: gas engine avg. of 8-9
liters per 100km (95 octane), diesel from 6-9, depending on car mass of
course.

do the big concerns think that people in the US want a car that is
saving lots of fuel?

Maintenance costs for a diesel I think
are not much different than for a gasoline engine, there are no
spark plugs/wires to change, fewer tune-ups (anything else?).

modern diesel engines are as faulty as gas engines.
they are full of electronic devices, sensors etc. just like gas
engines. additionally there are the high-pressure injection parts
(common rail: up to 1600 bar pressure).
so, yes, that will be not much different.

btw. i think that the diesel fuel will be an obstacle even in future.
the high-pressure parts of the engine rely on that. you only have to
drive to the wrong gas station _one_time_ and half of your engine is
broken... it is questionable if the big concerns really put their
european/japanese diesel engines on US market unaltered.

MH

 

[Bugalugs]

modern diesel engines are as faulty as gas engines.
they are full of electronic devices, sensors etc. just like gas
engines. additionally there are the high-pressure injection parts
(common rail: up to 1600 bar pressure).
so, yes, that will be not much different.

btw. i think that the diesel fuel will be an obstacle even in future.
the high-pressure parts of the engine rely on that. you only have to
drive to the wrong gas station _one_time_ and half of your engine is
broken...

That's interesting... How will this happen ?

it is questionable if the big concerns really put their

 

[Matthias Hunstock]

That's interesting... How will this happen ?

Traditional diesel injection pumps use the fuel for the lubrication of
their moving parts. I had a '92 VW Jetta with diesel engine, and it had
2 minor damages of the pump due to bad fuel within 4 years and 120.000
km.

The problem is that the sulfur in the diesel is good for lubrication but
produces toxic emissions. Therefore the sulfur content is restricted
e.g. in Europe, but additives must be given to the diesel to keep the
lubrication effect.

As there are only few traditional gaskets in such injection pumps but
many precision metal-to-metal bearings the lubrication is essential for
the pump's life.

Of course, after taking bad fuel one time, your engine is not really
broken, but the pump may have damages that cause some power loss and
very reduced lifetime. This time lag is the tricky thing...

Measured on the european prices of spare parts, the pump for the Jetta
was half the price of a new motor (only motor, without aggregats and
pump).

In Common Rail engines, the need for lubrication is not as high as in VW
systems (unit-injection), but proper operation still relies on several
properties of the fuel.

MH

 

[MN]

btw. i think that the diesel fuel will be an obstacle even in future.
the high-pressure parts of the engine rely on that. you only have to
drive to the wrong gas station _one_time_ and half of your engine is
broken... it is questionable if the big concerns really put their
european/japanese diesel engines on US market unaltered.

Well, there are plenty of VW diesels around doing fairly
well in US. I hope they resolve the fuel issue, and market
forces will do the rest, on the long run of course. By the
way, you can mistakenly pour gasoline into a diesel in Europe
too. I think it doesn't happen that often and won't necessarily
damage the engine right away, it'll just stall I guess.

As a side issue, when I lived in Eastern Europe (Poland)
in the mid 1980s, I had a 1985 Fiat Regata Diesel 1.7L.
The engine was great (Fiat has a long diesel history and
makes superb diesel engines). It was loud but the interior
of the car was fairly well insulated.

Diesel fuel was low quality then and for better lubrication
and to make it run a bit quieter, I used to mix small amounts
of 2-cycle oil with diesel. It worked beautifully and burned
surprisingly clean. I guess the higher temps in the diesel
engine made it possible. Of course this was before catalytic
converters, and multiple electronic sensors, so there was no
danger of doing damage to these.

MN

 

[Matthias Hunstock]

Well, there are plenty of VW diesels around doing fairly
well in US. I hope they resolve the fuel issue, and market
forces will do the rest, on the long run of course. By the
way, you can mistakenly pour gasoline into a diesel in Europe
too. I think it doesn't happen that often and won't necessarily
damage the engine right away, it'll just stall I guess.

I didnt mean taking gas instead of diesel, only the lubrication

You can mix 10% to 20% of gas into diesel to make it winter-proof (you
know, below -20°C) if it isnt.

As a side issue, when I lived in Eastern Europe (Poland)
in the mid 1980s, I had a 1985 Fiat Regata Diesel 1.7L.
The engine was great (Fiat has a long diesel history and
makes superb diesel engines). It was loud but the interior
of the car was fairly well insulated.

Diesel fuel was low quality then and for better lubrication
and to make it run a bit quieter, I used to mix small amounts
of 2-cycle oil with diesel. It worked beautifully and burned
surprisingly clean. I guess the higher temps in the diesel
engine made it possible. Of course this was before catalytic
converters, and multiple electronic sensors, so there was no
danger of doing damage to these.

interesting. what amounts did you mix? i would guess, something about
1:100.

MH

 

[Edward Hayes]

I was very interested in a diesel car some years ago because the fuel
was 25% cheaper and the diesel gave ~25% better fuel economy. I
thought it over and it occurred to me that the taxing bodies would
certainly see an extra good way to get more from us. So it happened is
they raised the fuel tax on diesel fuel to line their pockets. Well
the extra taxes and the extra cost to build diesel engine wiped out
any savings except for the over the road trucks. I hope it changes
but, really doubt it. I also discovered that if you have a car with a
diesel engine that performs as well as the gas engine that some of the
increase in fuel mileage is lost.

 

[MN]

interesting. what amounts did you mix? i would guess, something about
1:100.

Approximately 1/4 liter of oil (poured from a 1 litre container)
to more or less 50 liters of diesel fuel (the modest sized Fiat had
an unusually big tank 56+ liter). This makes 1:200 concentration.
I forgot to mention it helped fuel economy too.

MN

 

[Milton Noyes]

I was very interested in a diesel car some years ago because the fuel was
25% cheaper and the diesel gave ~25% better fuel economy. I thought it over
and it occurred to me that the taxing bodies would certainly see an extra
good way to get more from us. So it happened is they raised the fuel tax on
diesel fuel to line their pockets. Well the extra taxes and the extra cost
to build diesel engine wiped out any savings except for the over the road
trucks.

What a shame. I guess its the way a decentralized government
works. The taxes on fuel are mainly local affair and source
of county/state revenue.

When I came to US. in 1987 (from Poland) I could not believe
diesel cost almost as much as gasoline. In Poland diesel was
about 40% cheaper than gasoline, and was not rationed like gas
was (these were the communist days of shortages of all sorts,
combined with Western sanctions on Polish government of
General Jaruzelski).

I hope it changes but, really doubt it.

It may be difficult indeed, as the culture of taxing fuel
seems well entranched and local/state governments rely
on these revenues badly.

With electric hybrids its a different story at least for the time
being, as it seems culturally, and practically, far more difficult
to tax these heavily. So far local goverments seem very
supportive towards hybrids. I've heard San Francisco lets you
park free at any city parking meter. Car-pool lanes are made
available in most states.

It might be that hybrids will have an upper hand over diesels.

MN

 

[MN]

I was very interested in a diesel car some years ago because the fuel was
25% cheaper and the diesel gave ~25% better fuel economy. I thought it over
and it occurred to me that the taxing bodies would certainly see an extra
good way to get more from us. So it happened is they raised the fuel tax on
diesel fuel to line their pockets. Well the extra taxes and the extra cost
to build diesel engine wiped out any savings except for the over the road
trucks.

What a shame. I guess its the way a decentralized government
works. The taxes on fuel are mainly local affair and source
of county/state revenue.

When I came to US. in 1987 (from Poland) I could not believe
diesel cost almost as much as gasoline. In Poland diesel was
about 40% cheaper than gasoline, and was not rationed like gas
was (these were the communist days of shortages of all sorts,
combined with Western sanctions on Polish government of
General Jaruzelski).

I hope it changes but, really doubt it.

It may be difficult indeed, as the culture of taxing fuel
seems well entranched and local/state governments rely
on these revenues badly.

With electric hybrids its a different story at least for the time
being, as it seems culturally, and practically, far more difficult
to tax these heavily. So far local goverments seem very
supportive towards hybrids. I've heard San Francisco lets you
park free at any city parking meter. Car-pool lanes are made
available in most states.

It might be that hybrids will have an upper hand over diesels.

MN

 

[Rick Courtright]

but, really doubt it. I also discovered that if you have a car with a
diesel engine that performs as well as the gas engine that some of the
increase in fuel mileage is lost.

Hi,

In my mind, "performance" and "diesel" never seemed to fit in the same
sentence, but I recently found a story about a test M-B did on a new
diesel that might change my mind. For years I've had a "bug" about
finding a really nice old classic M-B 240D, certainly a poster car for
"sluggish" (if not worse!) Once in a while I surf a bit to see what's
out there, and last time I did, this story surfaced. I believe the cars
involved were E-series (one of the bigger ones?), and they put several
of them thru a test track regimen of 100,000 miles each at an average
speed of ~238 kph/149 mph (seems the engineers decided on a test speed
of 245 kph/153 mph though the drivers liked the feel of the cars at 265
kph/166 mph better.) The "fleet" average fuel economy for the entire
test was just over 18 mpg!

All in all, I was impressed! Wonder how they'd do at average US speeds
of maybe 65-75 mph? M-B's also reputedly working on a diesel mini-van,
140 hp, 70 mpg! If we Americans would ever get over our stupid "bigger
is better" mentality, with the attendant horsepower (and fuel thirst!)
race, I'd think diesels still hold a lot of promise.

Rick