2K Outback, Second Head Gasket Problem ??

[David Patnaude]

I have a 2000 Outback Wagon with approximately 83,000 miles. It has had the
additive added to the cooling system per the recall and still experienced
coolant seepage at the head gasket which was repaired under the recall
warranty extension.

Now it is about 9 months and 11,000 miles later and the coolant is showing
signs of oil contamination. Worst case is another head gasket problem or
the shop just did such a sloppy job the first time around and caused the
contamination.

I will be bringing it back in again for repair. Obviously the coolant
system needs to be flushed, but what else should they do to clear up the
problems?

The original leak was antifreeze to the outside of the engine. The
contamination symptom would be oil and antifreeze getting together on the
inside of the head gasket. Is a cylinder pressure test the proper
diagnostic tool to verify this type of leakage?

Thanks,
Dave Patnaude

 

[Edward Hayes]

Dave: I think a less than excellent repair was done. There has been 3X
improvements in gasket design so maybe in addition to workmanship the
latest and greatest gaskets were not used i.e. old stock. The cylinder
heads should be checked for warpage and resurfaced if needed. Lucky
you that you had the conditioner added which increased your warranty
from 3/36 to 8y/100,000 miles. "David Patnaude"

 

[Alyssa M]

Dave,

My husband is a Subaru tech, and I was just browsing this NG and saw your
post. First, the additive you're referring to is used for the headgasket
recall, as you said, but my understanding is that it's only for internal HG
leaks (between the cylinders/coolant) and not for leaks from the head to
outside the block. The test for this includes the cylider pressure test,
but can also include a test that checks for actual antifreeze residue in the
emissions inside the block.

You said your initial problem was an external leak, which the additive
probably fixed short-term. I doubt your technician screwed it up by using
the additive, and they probably didn't do anything else to it - in other
words, they didn't replace the gasket and reseal - they just used additive.
That's Subaru's fix - if the additive appears to fix the problem don't do
anything else. It's my understanding that with an external leak, they
should have recommended a head gasket replacement (which I also understand
is not covered under that recall because it is external, not internal), so
they gave you the recall solution, which gave you a short-term fix at no
cost, and gave you some more mileage.

Check with your service department to be sure that they didn't actually
replace the gasket - it doesn't sound like they did. Either way, whether
they did or did not, it is clear that with an internal leak you'll need the
gasket replaced, and both the coolant and oil systems flushed. Also, while
they're in there, if you haven't had your timing belt replaced, you might
ask if it's a good idea to do it then, while the thing is apart since you're
close to the 90K. I believe it should be covered under the recall extension
because they've already used the additive, but I'm not an expert, or a
service writer/manager so don't quote me on that. I hope this info helps a
little.

One other unrelated note - I noticed your last name (couldn't help myself).
My maiden name is Patnude, and I'm sure that somehow we're related.
Originally Patenaude or Paternostre, descended from Pierre Patenaude and
Catherine LaMonde from France then Quebec (c. 1690), then upstate NY, the
name has travelled all over - Maine, Vermont, Washington, California... and
changed into several variations (Patnude, Patnode, Patnaude, etc). If you
have any other info or anyone in your family is interested in genealogy I'd
be interested.

Again, hope this helps at least a little bit.

Take care,

Alyssa Mehl


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Patnaude" <(e-mail address removed)>
Newsgroups: alt.autos.subaru
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: 2K Outback, Second Head Gasket Problem ??

 

[David Patnaude]

On the Subaru Side:
Sequence of events
1. Recall and additive added to cooling system
2. Some time later, head gasket seepage repaired under recall extended
warranty. Took them two days to repair and the heads were pulled.
3. 9 months since number 2, head gasket problems again.

On the Patnaude side:

I am sure the family history is somewhat similar, we do refer to the
French-Canadian origins, but my family has very little knowledge of it. I
couldn't identify a Patnaude relative beyond my grandfather and he died at
60 years old more than 30 years ago. There is some speculation however that
the correct spelling was Patenaude and that my grandfather removed the E
only because a family friend made a sign for the house that was missing the
E. My Patnaude's are primarily in the Providence/Warwick, RI area.

The only non-family Patnaude that I have ever meet uses the spelling
Patneaude.

Dave

 

[David Patnaude]

Just to follow up on what is covered, I just spoke to my Subaru service
manager. He states that the recall only covers external seepage of coolant.
If I now have internal seepage that is not covered.

Last time only the drivers side was replaced. If this new seepage is also
on the drivers side I may still be able to get it covered under the
extended warranty since they have already had to work on that side.

Text of the recall:
Certain 1999 through 2002 2.5L equipped vehicles may experience an external
coolant leak at the head gaskets. As a precautionary measure, SOA is adding
a special conditioner to the engine cooling system. This conditioner
prevents leaks from occurring and corrects existing leaks.
Only early Phase II 2.5 liter engines are affected. Phase I 2.5 liter
engines (some 1999 model year and prior years) are not affected.
Countermeasures applied to the manufacturing process for those 2002 and
later VINS not affected by this campaign have eliminated the need for this
campaign to be performed on those vehicles.
In the future, it will be necessary to add Genuine Subaru Cooling System
Conditioner to the SUBARU vehicle cooling system whenever the engine
coolant is replaced.
If the vehicle owner has this repair performed promptly, Subaru will extend
warranty coverage on cylinder head gasket external coolant leaks to a
period of 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first. Warranty
coverage begins on the date the vehicle was delivered to the first retail
purchaser or on the date the vehicle was first placed in demo or rental
service. The owner must have Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner
added to the vehicle at any subsequent cooling system services at the
interval specified in the Warranty and Maintenance Booklet under the
heading “Schedule of Inspection and Maintenance Services”. Resulting damage
caused by a lack of maintenance or low coolant level will not be covered.

 

[John O]

Text of the recall:

Certain 1999 through 2002 2.5L equipped vehicles may experience an
external
coolant leak at the head gaskets. As a precautionary measure, SOA is
adding
a special conditioner to the engine cooling system. This conditioner
prevents leaks from occurring and corrects existing leaks.
Only early Phase II 2.5 liter engines are affected. Phase I 2.5 liter
engines (some 1999 model year and prior years) are not affected.

I've got a '99, so how do I find out which one I have?

-John O

 

[daszkiew2000]

if it's OBW you're on your own ( 2.5 DOHC engine) - sorry; moreover-
these engine are prone to internal HG leak, which is way more serious,
than external sepage ( of coolant , oil, or both);
if it's Forester, you're sorta lucky - it was first MY w/ 2.5 SOHC
engine, which should only develop external seepage; if you had your
miracle glue added under Subaru recall, and your car has less, than
100K miles on odo - in a case it develops HG seepage, you are entitled
to "free fix"; my 2000 OBW Ltd. w/125 k miles did have external sepage
for about a year, and they aded "conditioner" when the car had over
100k on odo, so i'm not eligible for "free fix"; but even if Iwas, I
wouldn't let' em tear my engine up because chance is high that Subie
techs will screw up somewhere on the way and the "free fix" will in
fact cost me a lot....
I drive my Subie w/ coolant and oil seepage and I just watch fluid
levels ( oil/coolant loss is not dramatic and there is no oil
contamination of coolant or coolant contamination of oil - things quite
unlikely with external head leaks anyway); I advise everyone , whose
Subie develops "external seepage" on HG to just keep on driving and
just keeping an eye out on oil and coolant levels and on temp gauge
on dashboard. Whole thing with "HG leaks" in 2.5 SOHC Subie engines
are - in my opinion - just a hype, partly stirred up by Subie
dealerships to make extra buck from SOA on repairs.... I LOVE MY
OUTBACK ! heeee ha

 

[Andy Leszczynski]

if it's OBW you're on your own ( 2.5 DOHC engine) - sorry; moreover-
these engine are prone to internal HG leak, which is way more serious,
than external sepage ( of coolant , oil, or both);
if it's Forester, you're sorta lucky -

So what if you have Impreza?

 

[Rick Courtright]

The only non-family Patnaude that I have ever meet uses the spelling
Patneaude.

Hi,

A friend spells his name "Pattenaude" and his Dad says there's some
French-Canadian in the background, so maybe another member of the
tribe's been found?

Rick

 

[John O]

if it's OBW you're on your own ( 2.5 DOHC engine) - sorry; moreover-

these engine are prone to internal HG leak, which is way more serious,
than external sepage ( of coolant , oil, or both);

I've got OBW...all of them are the problem engines?

At 115,000 miles I've just started getting some oil seepage somewhere, I
think on the passenger side. not a drop on the ground in the garage, but I
might have the oil level a bit higher than it should be.

If my oil is clean, and my coolant (in the radiator) is bright green, am I
OK so far?

-John O

 

[daszkiew2000]

what is MY of your OBW ? Also, don't worry too much about "oil level
too high" if your car is 2000 or younger - dipstick readings are sort
of tricky - when you check oil level let your car sit on flat surface
for about one hour, then read your oil level on BOTH SIDES OF
DIPSTICK and take an average - that's what I do; also, if you has
coolant infiltration into oil, your oil would look like milkshake (
wouldn't be clear ); oil seepage thru HGs on my 2000 OBW is " normal
" during summer months, while coolant seepage is " normal " during
winter season ( coolant seeps while you start your car in the morning
and ambient temp is below freezing, then colloidal suspension of "
coolant conditioner" dealer added to your system kicks in and there
should be no leaks when engine is hot - just make sure you warm your
engine up before you drive ); another thing : if you keep adding
coolant because you think it's going down too fast - you also dilute
concentration of conditioner, so make sure you get a bottle every
couple years and pour it in; another bright side of coolant sepage
thru HGs is that you don't have to flush and reload your cooling
system - just add coolant periodically plus add conditioner every few
years, and you are ready to roll...
cheers

 

[John O]

what is MY of your OBW ?

'99, and thanks for the tips.

 

[daszkiew2000]

Andy - Impreza is like Outback : both made in Lafayette , IN plant; 2.5
SOHC engine was implemented for MY 2000 and on ( Forester is made in
Japan and the implementation for US market was for some reason one year
ahead )
hope it helps

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Andy - Impreza is like Outback : both made in Lafayette , IN plant; 2.5
SOHC engine was implemented for MY 2000 and on ( Forester is made in
Japan and the implementation for US market was for some reason one year
ahead )
hope it helps

All Imprezas (at present) come from japan.

Carl

 

[daszkiew2000]

sorry - my mistake; carl is right - they were and are made in Japan;
so they follow Forester's pattern (i looked at the wrong column of a
table ....)

 

[Andy Leszczynski]

Andy - Impreza is like Outback : both made in Lafayette , IN plant; 2.5
SOHC engine was implemented for MY 2000 and on ( Forester is made in
Japan and the implementation for US market was for some reason one year
ahead )
hope it helps

My wife's Impreza VIN starts of J, so it is made in Japan.

A.

 

[lkreh]

To follow-up on JohnO's question, the recall says "certain 1999 through
2002 2.5L equipped vehicles." I still have a 99 OBW w/ a 2.5L, too.
So...specifically which certain 1999 equipped 2.5L are subject to this
recall? Anyone know? Also, when was the recall issued? I take mine
to the dealer for service, it's now at 118K miles, and I'm not aware
that the dealer ever added any special conditioner per the recall.

 

[Andy Leszczynski]

To follow-up on JohnO's question, the recall says "certain 1999 through
2002 2.5L equipped vehicles." I still have a 99 OBW w/ a 2.5L, too.
So...specifically which certain 1999 equipped 2.5L are subject to this
recall? Anyone know? Also, when was the recall issued? I take mine
to the dealer for service, it's now at 118K miles, and I'm not aware
that the dealer ever added any special conditioner per the recall.

I have 2002 Outback and 2002 Impreza. Impreza is affected, Outback is
not. Dealer deciphered it based on VIN.

A.

 

[DG]

You can have an external oil and coolant leak as well as internal coolant
leak. I know. I just had it happen and had it fixed on my '02 Impreza. My
oil looked ok and coolant ok, visually. Be smart. Get a sample of your oil
tested to be sure. I get mine done periodically at
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ This is a very reliable lab and you will
get a detailed report for your car.

Coolant leaking into your oil may be subtle and not visible, but may still
caue MAJOR damage. Test your oil. Be sure.

 

[DG]

Uhhh, the standard repair is to replace BOTH head gaskets when there is a
failure, even of just one side. If you only had one gasket
replaced...well...time for a new dealership. Since your repair was less
than one year ago, it should be covered under the standard service warranty
of one year for parts and labor.